Swabbing between shots. A safety question

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carpd

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I am wondering about the safety of a method of swabbing between shots at the range. I am trying to figure this all out more or less on my own so I thought I would ask here to see if I can gain some insight on the safety of a method I borrowed from the "Cap n Ball" youtube gentleman from Hungary. He was shooting a 45 cal 2 band Enfield Whitworth style rifle that I believe he was intending to compete with at a long range. After his shot, he used a funnel to load the powder followed by card wad but did not swab before that. Then he would use a spit patch to swab the rest of the barrel, followed by a dry swab if I recall correctly. Then he would seat his bullet.

I am not new to the world per se, but I am new to black powder. I have a TC Omega that I bought a 15+ years ago and even took a deer with it. My kids just weren't into hunting so it has just sat in the safe. The Omega is expensive to shoot and with a scope not all that different to the CF in a way that is any more fun for me than the CF. I found a 54 cal Hawken at a local guns shop for $200, which seemed to be a good deal and I picked it up. I used T7 with round balls 1st followed by 535 grain NE conicals. I found the Hawken a lot more fun to shoot for me personally and I probably will just sell the Omega. The crud ring from T7 was annoying me though. I decided to try real BP for the 1st time in my 54 years. Olde Eynsford 2F is what I was able to aquire. I could not find Swiss. I found the O.E. much easier to swab out than T7 between shots and velocity is actually pretty close on a vol:vol basis.

Fast forward 2 months and things get out of hand quickly. The TC Hawken now has a .45 cal Rice 1-20" twist Match Grade Barrel, a Lee Shaver Economy Soule sight and Lyman globe front Sight. I am only planning on using this at the range. The same amount of fouling in a smaller bore makes it a little tougher to swab the Olde Eynsford between shots. There is some thicker fouling (caked?) compared to the 54 cal near the breech. In fact I have a few misfires because I either got the powder wet from the damp patch (using Balistol with water) or I may have plugged up the patent breech with fouling trying to get a consistent amount of fouling throughout the bore. I tried the method I mentioned above (powder, wad, swab, bullet). That method was actually much quicker and easier and I didn't have to worry about getting fouling in the breech. I was still careful so I didn't get anything wet. The very 1st thing I noticed pouring in the next load of BP was a lot of smoke from the previous shot billowed out of my funnel. Fortunately I was alone when this happened as it gave me a bit of anxiety for a few seconds wondering what would happen next. I also noted that the thicker fouling was a bit above my wad so I wondered if that would negatively impact accuracy as more and more shots were taken or how much thick fouling could build up?

I think that this is a newbie sort of question. I have searched the internet about "properly" swabbing between shots. There I have found so many answers and contradictory hard and fast rules concerning if you should, how you should and what you should swab it with that I am more confused than ever. Finally to my question. 1. Is the method above safe to do given that an ember (if that happens) might be left in the barrel from the previous shot? Or, should I have just realized that smoke is normal because it is black powder? 2. If the method is safe to do, is it an appropriate method to use with regards to accuracy? 3. If I should go back to swabbing before the powder is added, what are some ways to ensure that I am not plugging the breech with fouling?

Thank you in advance for your insight. Hopefully that will be my last 4 paragraph post!
 
First of all, I really like that capandball guy. He knows what he's talking about.
You'll probably get 10 different answers to your questions.
Speaking only for myself, I think that shooting black powder rifles and pistols is a good "slow it down " hobby.
I shoot at a public range and I go pretty early, so generally there's no one else there.
I'll take one shot, walk down to the target and back. This gives my barrel a few minutes to cool down. Then I damp patch, dry patch my barrel. Then get my next load ready. Never had a problem with smoke coming up the barrel on me.
My range sessions are usually several hours and I may only take 8 or 10 shots total.
From what you describe, it sounds like you have a good routine going. Maybe just slow down your pace a bit. Let your gun cool down for a minute or two and you'll be fine.
Good shooting.
 
First of all, I really like that capandball guy. He knows what he's talking about.
You'll probably get 10 different answers to your questions.
Speaking only for myself, I think that shooting black powder rifles and pistols is a good "slow it down " hobby.
I shoot at a public range and I go pretty early, so generally there's no one else there.
I'll take one shot, walk down to the target and back. This gives my barrel a few minutes to cool down. Then I damp patch, dry patch my barrel. Then get my next load ready. Never had a problem with smoke coming up the barrel on me.
My range sessions are usually several hours and I may only take 8 or 10 shots total.
From what you describe, it sounds like you have a good routine going. Maybe just slow down your pace a bit. Let your gun cool down for a minute or two and you'll be fine.
Good shooting.
Thank you. My shots are "usually" at least 10 minutes apart, but that method does let you move a bit faster.

I like The Cap and Ball guy too. I believe that he is very knowledgeable. His Ph.D in Military History mixed with his obvious love of muzzleloaders has me convinced he knows what he is talking about. If fact it made me think that historically, military muzzleloaders were loaded more than once in a minute. Apparently I had did something incorrectly or something isn't right with my set up.

Thanks.
 
Swabbing after powder & wad is the ‘Rigby’ method done in competition in the late 1800’s - aka Creedmoor.
I prefer to swab to the Breech, I believe it’s a matter of choice and powder.
I found OE much softer than Swiss, but does not give me the accuracy.
Do what you feel comfortable, good luck.
 
This will tell you what powder the shooters like.
Most clean between shots to the breech.
2ACD37D8-6BB2-437D-B13F-F031E7A22DF8.jpeg
 
This will tell you what powder the shooters like.
Most clean between shots to the breech.
View attachment 14407
Wow, that is an amazing of information. I guess I will have to see if I can get my hands on some Swiss powder. I really appreciate the info. I am just getting started figuring out this particular rifle and black powder muzzleloading in general but this gives me a head start. I think I am just going to return to swabbing to the breech. Picked up some 91% isopropyl today to try a different approach for the moist swab.
 
Your damp patch does not need to be saturated- damp. Some snap a cap after wiping, some get away without.
 
For match grade accuracy, most shooters will swab the barrel clean after every shot. I confess that I have never been inclined to shoot that way.

Early on (1971), in teaching myself how to load and shoot my brand new Golden Age Arms Company,. 45 caliber, Lancaster longrifle with its Douglas GAA barrel; I stumbled upon a method of loading that allowed me to shoot multiple shots indefinitely without needing to swab the barrel.

Blowing down the barrel to keep the fouling soft.

A tight patch/ball combination that pushed the soft fouling of the previous shot down onto the new powder charge.

Using a stiff copper wire to prick the touch hole before EVERY shot, ensuring that there was a unobstructed flame channel.

A well assembled and tuned large Siler flintlock that ALWAYS went off.

Sawn, double-ended, German agate flints that averaged 80 shots before requiring honing on a diamond plate.

Subsequent longrifles, all with Getz barrels, were set up to shoot the same way.

Accuracy was silver dollar size, 5-shot groups at 100 yards, offhand, open sights, lousy eyesight, ages 17- 35.

ONCE IN A WHILE. Usually, I could manage a 4"-5", 5-shot group at that distance.

All of the rifles were probably capable of better accuracy than that off of a bench. The limitation was the human, ME, not the rifle.

I confess that I envy those that have the patience to shoot off a bench for long periods of time. My hats off to you!!!!
 
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Your damp patch does not need to be saturated- damp. Some snap a cap after wiping, some get away without.
I’ve attempted to be careful with the amount of moisture. I think I will add in snapping a cap to see if that helps me avoid misfires.

Off topic of my original post, but I am wondering if there is a general bullet shape of the PP bullets in the chart you posted. I assume they would be a more aerodynamic shape for a higher B.C. But admit I don’t know. I know in CF rifles, a high G1/G7 B.C . doesn’t necessarily mean a more accurate load. I wondered if the same is true for muzzleloaders? I am currently buying my PP bullets and BAC is the choice I have/am aware of right now. Perhaps there are others that would be a better choice?
 
I shoot .32 round ball frequently with goex. Lots of fowling. I use a simple spit patch. Just clean patch put in mouth and enough spit to make slightly damp. Wipe then wipe again with a dry patch. Never any problems with my percussion gun. Some people lick one side of patch, run wet side down , then flip patch to dry side and run it down.
There are more ways to swab between shots then most women have in shoes. Find what works for you and go with it. Have fun !
 
Carpd....welcome to Modern Muzzleloader!.

You should address this question to Idaholewis. I think he's deposited more lead in Idaho than Galena, Illinois can lay claim to just trying to find perfection with the PP bullets. He designs his own molds/bullets, casts them, sizes them, weighs each and wraps them, in other words total control of what he shoots. In short, he eliminates most of the error before he pulls a trigger. There are others here who follow his example closely and yet others who will order bullets but weigh each keeping those that are within X amount of weight of each other before finishing the bullets. I think finding bullets that all weigh within a .10 of each other is a good starting point for you.

I'll add that blowing down a barrel, even if its know to be empty, is a bad habit to get into. Use canned air if you somehow feel compelled to blow down a barrel. Its not only safer but you'll look smarter.
 
Carpd....welcome to Modern Muzzleloader!.

You should address this question to Idaholewis. I think he's deposited more lead in Idaho than Galena, Illinois can lay claim to just trying to find perfection with the PP bullets. He designs his own molds/bullets, casts them, sizes them, weighs each and wraps them, in other words total control of what he shoots. In short, he eliminates most of the error before he pulls a trigger. There are others here who follow his example closely and yet others who will order bullets but weigh each keeping those that are within X amount of weight of each other before finishing the bullets. I think finding bullets that all weigh within a .10 of each other is a good starting point for you.

I'll add that blowing down a barrel, even if its know to be empty, is a bad habit to get into. Use canned air if you somehow feel compelled to blow down a barrel. Its not only safer but you'll look smarter.
I have watched most of Idaho Lewis' videos. My wife has outlawed lead casting for me so I am purchasing them. I have weighed the BAC swaged paper patch bullets and they are remarkably consistent. Usually within a 1/2 grain. I can sort them out to get them in lots with less variation too.

I agree with you on blowing down the barrel. I have a muzzleloader system to either load start to finish OR not load at all. No exceptions. That said, I made that rule because I have loaded a patched round ball over an empty barrel while I was chatting with someone and was certain that I had put powder in. Blowing into the barrel increases odds that I could put my face over a loaded gun someday. I wouldn't look very smart to anyone if that went wrong! I also don't wish to have my kids who often shoot with me or the high school trap team that practices at that range see a "responsible" adult do such a thing.

I did try the canned air you can purchase to blow off your computer keyboard or similar things. The can stated it was pure air, no moisture or particulates. I have an old nipple that I drilled out and put a clear plastic tube similar to a fuel line on it. I used this to blow through the breech. The inside of the clear tube immediately fogged up with condensation. So I stopped doing that as I assumed it was probably wetting my breech. I have blown out a PP bullet from a misfire with it though.

Thank you the response and the warm welcome.
 
I swab between Shots with HEET in the Red Bottle, I lay my Rifle on it’s side with Nipple up, I try and keep my muzzle pointed slightly Down. I use 2 WET Patches & 1 Dry one. HEET in the Red Bottle is Simply HIGH Content Isopropyl Alcohol (99%) It evaporates QUICKLY, VERY QUICKLY. After swabbing I point my Rifle straight down at the Ground and Pop 1 Cap off, You will see Crud Trickle out on the Ground, This is coming from the Fire Channel, Patented Breech, This is a CRITICAL Step for me, if i forget to do this? I will almost guaranteed have a Hangfire. The Smaller the Bore, and faster the Twist, the Worse this is. They “Choke“ themselves out when using Real Blackpowder such as Swiss. Each Shot costs me 2 Percussion Caps, Just the nature of the Beast

Paper Patch Bullets, I have a LOVE/HATE Relationship with them, They are where i started in Muzzleloading, And where a lot of my Knowledge is, I have had NUMEROUS Molds made, My Paper Patch Bullets can be SUPER ACCURATE when i get everything Right (Paper/Bullet/Sized to Fit Bore correctly) As I’ve said MANY times, The Paper alone can make a BIG difference in Accuracy. In Short, Paper Patch can be VERY VERY Finicky to get Right.

My Biggest problem (HATE) with my Paper Patch is the Fouling i have to Deal with, After all they are Shot BONE DRY, When using Swiss Real Blackpowder The Fouling is BRUTAL, I have to Bulldoze my way through it, I literally have to Back up, Short Stroke, RAM in to it, After i break through the Bulk of the Fouling with my 1st WET Patch, the Next Wet patch is obviously MUCH Easier and i am able to get the Bore wiped Clean with it, then i run a New/Clean Drying Patch. I pop a Cap through Muzzle pointed STRAIGHT Down so the Crud in the Fire Channel & Patented Breech can trickle out.

I also use a Home made Powder Drop Tube, I don’t like the Idea of Dropping Powder down a Bore that i just WET Stroked to get fouling out, Even though i swabbed with a Drying patch, The Bore GROOVES stil have PLENTY of Fouling in them, And it only makes sense that it would be “Damp” By using my Powder Drop Tube i Bypass touching the Bore, Sending my Powder in a Free Fall down a CLEAN & DRY Tube, Straight down to the Breech where it belongs :lewis:With muzzle pointed straight up, i TAP TAP TAP on the Wrist of the Rifle, this “Jarring” helps the Powder to Settle GOOD under the Nipple where it’s needed for Reliable ignition. I now push my 1/8” Wool Felt Wad Down by itself, And lastly the Bullet
 
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My experience is limited compared to many on this site and I can’t speak to your loading method as I am unfamiliar with that method. Although, I would say the caked on fouling is prolly from ballistol left in barrel? And welcome to the site! The guys here are full of info and more then willing to share it.
 
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I will ad, I saturate my 1/8” Wool Felt wads in 100% Peanut Oil, I Simply Blot the Excess with a Paper Towel (This is Bench/Target Shooting) Peanut Oil is an AWESOME Hydrator, it really helps soften Fouling. I use Peanut Oil Soaked 1/8” Wool Felt OP Wads with Both my Paper Patch, and Grease Groove Bullets.
 
I swab between Shots with HEET in the Red Bottle, I lay my Rifle on it’s side with Nipple up, I try and keep my muzzle pointed slightly Down. I use 2 WET Patches & 1 Dry one. HEET in the Red Bottle is Simply HIGH Content Isopropyl Alcohol (99%) It evaporates QUICKLY, VERY QUICKLY. After swabbing I point my Rifle straight down at the Ground and Pop 1 Cap off, You will see Crud Trickle out on the Ground, This is coming from the Fire Channel, Patented Breech, This is a CRITICAL Step for me, if i forget to do this? I will almost guaranteed have a Hangfire. The Smaller the Bore, and faster the Twist, the Worse this is. They “Choke“ themselves out when using Real Blackpowder such as Swiss. Each Shot costs me 2 Percussion Caps, Just the nature of the Beast

Paper Patch Bullets, I have a LOVE/HATE Relationship with them, They are where i started in Muzzleloading, And where a lot of my Knowledge is, I have had NUMEROUS Molds made, My Paper Patch Bullets can be SUPER ACCURATE when i get everything Right (Paper/Bullet/Sized to Fit Bore correctly) As I’ve said MANY times, The Paper alone can make a BIG difference in Accuracy. In Short, Paper Patch can be VERY VERY Finicky to get Right.

My Biggest problem (HATE) with my Paper Patch is the Fouling i have to Deal with, After all they are Shot BONE DRY, When using Swiss Real Blackpowder The Fouling is BRUTAL, I have to Bulldoze my way through it, I literally have to Back up, Short Stroke, RAM in to it, After i break through the Bulk of the Fouling with my 1st WET Patch, the Next Wet patch is obviously MUCH Easier and i am able to get the Bore wiped Clean with it, then i run a New/Clean Drying Patch. I pop a Cap through Muzzle pointed STRAIGHT Down so the Crud in the Fire Channel & Patented Breech can trickle out.

I also use a Home made Powder Drop Tube, I don’t like the Idea of Dropping Powder down a Bore that i just WET Stroked to get fouling out, Even though i swabbed with a Drying patch, The Bore GROOVES stil have PLENTY of Fouling in them, And it only makes sense that it would be “Damp” By using my Powder Drop Tube i Bypass touching the Bore, Sending my Powder in a Free Fall down a CLEAN & DRY Tube, Straight down to the Breech where it belongs :lewis:With muzzle pointed straight up, i TAP TAP TAP on the Wrist of the Rifle, this “Jarring” helps the Powder to Settle GOOD under the Nipple where it’s needed for Reliable ignition. I now push my 1/8” Wool Felt Wad Down by itself, And lastly the Bullet
Thank you Lewis. I will try your method.

I had the same idea about the powder sticking to a wet bore. I made a funnel out of 2 aluminum arrow shafts measured to drop about an inch above the breech in the 32" barrel.

After reading your technique and what you are experiencing I realize that I am experiencing the exact same things (difficulty removing fouling, some hang fires, etc) so I must be on track.

I did try the HEET in the red bottle, but mine had injector cleaner in it (I didn't see a bottle without it, but perhaps that store only had that type?) and I didn't think it worked as well as the 1:3 ballistol water mixture. Conversely, I had couple misfires which I assume was because that ballistol/water mixture doesn't ever dry allowing the powder to get wet.

Thanks again. This is such a great community, it is just so small (sort of a niche which is a good thing) that I have found one person near me who has some experience with this in a population of over 100,000+ people in my city. Many of them hunt, lots of gun shops around but few who shoot black powder and bullets. That one person just says "bear grease" which I haven't found to work well. I am very appreciative for all the help from this forum.
 
My experience is limited compared to many on this site and I can’t speak to your loading method as I am unfamiliar with that method. Although, I would say the caked on fouling is prolly from ballistol left in barrel? And welcome to the site! The guys here are full of info and more then willing to share it.
I hadn't thought of the ballistol causing the caking. I am switching to 91% isopropyl next time so I will see if that helps.
 
With HEET in the RED Bottle you have to Swab QUICKLY as it dries VERY Quickly. I wet 2 patches at the Same time, by the time i break through the Bulk of the Fouling with the 1st Wet Patch (Probably 15-20 Seconds?) The 2nd Wet Patch is already nearly Dry. You are better off to WET each Patch Just as you Start to Swab.

This is the Stuff i am Talking about that i use, I have a Case full of it. Store Bought 91% isopropyl Alcohol is great stuff as well, just not near as Hot as Red Bottle HEET, Again you HAVE to Swab QUICKLY with this Stuff as it Dries VERY QUICKLY
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