Swabbing between shots. A safety question

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Off topic of my original post, but I am wondering if there is a general bullet shape of the PP bullets in the chart you posted. I assume they would be a more aerodynamic shape for a higher B.C. But admit I don’t know. I know in CF rifles, a high G1/G7 B.C . doesn’t necessarily mean a more accurate load. I wondered if the same is true for muzzleloaders? I am currently buying my PP bullets and BAC is the choice I have/am aware of right now. Perhaps there are others that would be a better choice?
You’re correct- BC, velocity, etc.. does not equate to accuracy.
I’ve hosted and shot in nearly 40- 1000yd ML matches over 25years at Oak Ridge. I’ve probably seen it all - and we still are not at the accuracy/scores on a consistent bases compared to the 1860-70’s.
Dave’s PP swaged bullets are good, just be sure to weigh them as well as your powder charges.
Good luck.
 
There is a valid reason that early users of muzzleloading weapons, which is to say hand cannons & matchlocks, started blowing down the barrel some 400 years ago, AFTER the shot, and BEFORE anything else to reload the weapon occurred.

This is because the hot moisture in our human breath softens the warm fouling, and allows it to be easily pushed back down the barrel onto the fresh powder charge. This is regardless of whether one is shooting a smoothbore, or a rifled weapon.

Because of the propellant in canned air, the air comes out of the can COLD, not what you want.

Many match shooters use a tube with a mouthpiece to replicate blowing down the barrel.

This post IS NOT INTENDED to get into a back-and-forth, pissing contest over the relative merits of blowing down the barrel. It is merely an information only post to educate those that might not know the history behind why it was acceptable practice from the beginnings of muzzleloading, up until the late 20th Century.

Liability laws, and the threat of lawsuits, is the only reason that no one any longer promotes blowing down the barrel. To the best of my knowledge, no black powder shooter in my lifetime has been injured due to this practice. I am 67 today, and started shooting black powder in 1970.

Injuries due to carelessness, and stupidity.....YES!!!!!

Primarily due to people talking while a shooter is loading & shooting, thus distracting him/her. That's why I don't participate in group shoots very often as there is FAR TOO MUCH talking & shooting the $**+ going on. Too easy to make a mistake.

But, blowing down the barrel......NO!!!

Because, it's really hard to injure oneself blowing down an empty barrel. And, it's pretty easy to determine whether, or not, if the barrel has been emptied by being shot.

Edit:

re. Mr. Tom's rebuttal to this post. I am not recommending for anyone to blow down the barrel of their m-l weapon. As he pointed out, it's real easy to get in a hurry, and make mistakes. The black powder substitutes all have drawbacks of one kind, or another. Crud rings are most common, and can lead to embers in the barrel. It pays to do the research on whatever propellant that you are going to be shooting, and to be fully aware of all of its characteristics, quirks, and traits.

In my opinion, real black powder is the least troublesome of all the current propellants available for a muzzleloading shooter to choose from in 2021.
 
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At my range anyone seen blowing down a barrel would be escorted off the field simply because even looking down a barrel is not considered safe handling. What's done in one's basement is one thing, but some of what one does when not on a range is not acceptable on a range. Period.

Maybe this site should have a separate forum titled "what used to be" for topics of this nature. Your first mention of this included no history of the practice.

When I shot T7 [or do shoot it] I always carried a worn bristle brush in my range kit to put on the rod for the first pass of the damp patch....the patch going right on the brush. The bronze bristles poked thru the patch material enough to help cut any caked deposits on the first pass down and back up. Then a regular jag was screwed on for a couple other patches, again with the first one damp.

I have an Impact that does super well with T7 loose and regular Winchester 209 shotshell primers behind a 300 grain Deep Curl. Needless to say the crud ring is something else. Using the bristle brush/patch combo mentioned above, that crud ring disappears quite easily. While at the bench I'm never in a hurry to reload but in the field a reload using that gun and T7 maybe needs to be done a bit faster so I carry a damp patch on the brush in one ziplock and the jag and patches in another. The patches in with the jag get spit damped. This Impact is a loaner gun for anyone who I may be introducing to black powder hunting. A morning at the range is ALWAYS a prerequisite to hunting so whoever has a full understanding of the do's and don'ts involved with the gun and the powder used.

While not really related to blowing down a barrel, I did witness many years ago when T7 first hit the market a fella shooting his sidelock off a bench and reloading right after the shot. And I do mean pronto after the shot. His powder had been poured into cigar tubes without covers and placed to the side in a home-made rack only a foot or so from his shooting position. He was forcing the loads down the pipe so a ring was obvious. He shot, then set the butt down on the ground and grabbed a new charge and was half way done pouring when spontaneous ignition happened due to a live ember was in the barrel. The resultant fireball ignited all of those open tubes of powder. The fireball also burned most of his hair off, went underneath his shooting glasses and fried his eyelids as well as most most of the skin on his head and hands. The only fortunate thing of the whole mess was that he did not have his face directly over that barrel. So when I hear of blowing down a barrel, which would involve having one's head directly over the barrel, this episode comes to mind.

The keyword with anything muzzleloading is safety. Sorry if I offended you but I am not going to apologize for calling you on a safety issue. You offered no historic basis in your first comment regarding blowing into a barrel nor did you say DON"T DO THIS.
...."Early on (1971), in teaching myself how to load and shoot my brand new Golden Age Arms Company,. 45 caliber, Lancaster longrifle with its Douglas GAA barrel; I stumbled upon a method of loading that allowed me to shoot multiple shots indefinitely without needing to swab the barrel.
Blowing down the barrel to keep the fouling soft."
 
That HEET is also good for "before shooting" too. Not a great solvent to remove storage oils but it works well in a pinch. Its much less toxic than other options. Its also great for removing any water left from normal cleaning. It will make any water left in the bore evaporate fast.

I would imagine if you wanted you could mix about 10% Ballistol with it as a cleaner too. Not as a thorough cleaning solution but for the ride home or to get you by for a few hours until you can give it a good scrubbing. A couple guys are using a similar mix for a swabbing mix when shooting BH209. So i would imagine Ballistol thinned down a great deal with ISO HEET might work ok too.
 
That HEET is also good for "before shooting" too. Not a great solvent to remove storage oils but it works well in a pinch. Its much less toxic than other options. Its also great for removing any water left from normal cleaning. It will make any water left in the bore evaporate fast.

I would imagine if you wanted you could mix about 10% Ballistol with it as a cleaner too. Not as a thorough cleaning solution but for the ride home or to get you by for a few hours until you can give it a good scrubbing. A couple guys are using a similar mix for a swabbing mix when shooting BH209. So i would imagine Ballistol thinned down a great deal with ISO HEET might work ok too.

I owe the RED Bottle HEET to you GM54, It was you that advised it to me, I have been using it ever since (Well over a year now, maybe 2?) it Works AWESOME, It dries SUPER Fast Which I really like.
 
Glad it worked for you. Regular HEET is methanol and its far more toxic. The idea came from guys mixing Windex and isopropyl. The water content is a non issue if mixing with Windex. Its mostly water anyway. You can get ISO HEET at nearly any auto parts store and some gas stations so why not just make life simple. No need to run into Walgreens or Walmart and track a 1/4 mile across the "Super Center" for a bottle of 91% when ISO HEET is about 99%. Its only $2.50 a bottle around here at Autozone, O'Rileys and similar places.
 
I shoot BH209 almost exclusively but I carry an un-opened jug of the red bottle Heet in my range box. It works well to soften the carbon in flash channels and a general duty plug cleaner should I need it. The only down side is once that seal is breeched the contents will not store well, but is cheap. I also use it in the work room while working with plastic baits. Both the raw plastic and colorants can be messy and the Heet cleans things up in a snap then dries quick without leaving any film or smudges. Handy stuff to have around.
 
I shoot BH209 almost exclusively but I carry an un-opened jug of the red bottle Heet in my range box. It works well to soften the carbon in flash channels and a general duty plug cleaner should I need it. The only down side is once that seal is breeched the contents will not store well, but is cheap. I also use it in the work room while working with plastic baits. Both the raw plastic and colorants can be messy and the Heet cleans things up in a snap then dries quick without leaving any film or smudges. Handy stuff to have around.
That's good information to know. Thanks.
 
I wanted to give an update to those interested.

I got a chance to shoot today to test some different types of paper and patched bullet sizing.
- 380gr BAC swaged PP bullets wt sorted to 0.5 grain. 45 cal.
- 80gr (wt) Olde Eynsford 2F Black powder.
- CCI "mag" or Win "mag" #11 caps
- Set up inexpensive Caldwell rest to hold rifle with muzzle slightly down.
- 13 shots 1 1/2 hours taking my time.

1. load BP with funnel about 1" from breech.
2. 45 cal pre-lubed ox-yoke wool wad.
3. Seat bullet - fire.
4. 91% isopropyl sprayed on patch placed on paper towel. Patted to ensure damp, not wet.
5. 3 swabs. Some difficulty initially to reach breech, but less caking than 25:75 Ballistol:water used previously
6. Repeat step 2. Most of powder, but not all, near breech removed.
7. 3 swabs with dry patch. Flip same patch and repeat.
8. Tilt muzzle down and "pop" cap toward loose patch on the ground to confirm patency,
9. Repeat 1-8.

0/13 hang fires.
0/13 misfires.
0/13 pulled patches.
0/13 difficult to load bullets.
13/13 more enjoyable to shoot!

Thank you everyone for the help.
 
How was accuracy?

I tried these .444-380s and had horrible luck with them, They didn’t shoot worth a Darn in any of my Rifles, I finally gave up and melted the Rest down.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/444-diameter-380-grain-swage-ppb444380.html
These .444-400s on the other Hand shoot AMAZING in All of my Fast Twist .45s, This is one of my ALL TIME Favorite Bullets for the 1:30 Twist GM LRH Barrels
https://www.buffaloarms.com/444-diameter-400-grain-swage-ppb444400.html

I am using the 442. I am somewhat glad to hear you say that because they didn't shoot well for me either. Pretty short bearing surface? I have some 500 grain 442 on the way. I will give them a try in my 1:20 Rice and see how they shoot. I am just slowly working my way through various parts of the load 1 at a time. I am also just getting acquainted with Soule sight so I could be my shooting as well. I did end up ordering the Hadley eye cup as I am beginning to understand the system. If the 500 gr aren't working, I will give the 400 a try. My bore is .449 - .4495 as near as I can tell and have been wrapping .4485 with and without resizing to that diameter as needed.
 
Typical accuracy i get with the BACO .444-400s, i have shot MANY awesome Groups with this Bullet. Again, it is one of my All time Favorites :lewis:

Target here is just a pinch over 100 Yards
vZIfZz6.jpg


7 Shots
Jn48qlY.jpg


This was with my Old Knight Mountaineer 1:20 Twist with the .444-400
eefacxr.jpg


eWESyNN.jpg
 
Typical accuracy i get with the BACO .444-400s, i have shot MANY awesome Groups with this Bullet. Again, it is one of my All time Favorites :lewis:

Target here is just a pinch over 100 Yards
vZIfZz6.jpg


7 Shots
Jn48qlY.jpg


This was with my Old Knight Mountaineer 1:20 Twist with the .444-400
eefacxr.jpg


eWESyNN.jpg
That looks great!

If you are using the 444-400, what is your diameter of the ready to fire patched bullet? I have been resizing my PP bullets with the Hankins resizing die, but I am wondering if I used the .444 that it might squeeze the PP bullet to a diameter that would cause the bullet to fall out of the paper?
 
This is another one that shot HORRIBLE for me in every rifle i tried them in, The .442-400s, They are TOTALLY different than the .444-400s that i love so much

I bought these .442s so that I wouldn’t have to Size like i do with the .444s, And to my amazement when I opened the box they didn’t even look like my Beloved .444s? I figured they would be identical in Shape? But as you can clearly see They are not, They are VERY Different! These particular .442s Shot HORRIBLE for me, After enough testing to be confident that I didn’t like them, The remaining bullets were melted down

Bullet on the left is the .442, bullet on the right is my “Trusty” .444
o2yC1As.jpg
 
This is another one that shot HORRIBLE for me in every rifle i tried them in, The .442-400s, They are TOTALLY different than the .444-400s that i love so much

I bought these .442s so that I wouldn’t have to Size like i do with the .444s, And to my amazement when I opened the box they didn’t even look like my Beloved .444s? I figured they would be identical in Shape? But as you can clearly see They are not, They are VERY Different! These particular .442s Shot HORRIBLE for me, After enough testing to be confident that I didn’t like them, The remaining bullets were melted down

Bullet on the left is the .442, bullet on the right is my “Trusty” .444
o2yC1As.jpg
...Darn. I wonder what the 442-500 I already have on order will look like?

Yep, I can see they have completely different ogive shapes. I guess I didn't appreciate from the website that the different diameters were also different shaped ogives. If the 442-500 do not shoot well, I will give the 444-400 a try.

To bad I don't cast my own bullets because it is a bit $$ to get lead shipped half way across the country. I wished I lived as close to BAC as you do. It would save me some time! You also have some of the worlds best dirt bike single track there too. I may be more jealous of that!
 
...Darn. I wonder what the 442-500 I already have on order will look like?

Yep, I can see they have completely different ogive shapes. I guess I didn't appreciate from the website that the different diameters were also different shaped ogives. If the 442-500 do not shoot well, I will give the 444-400 a try.

To bad I don't cast my own bullets because it is a bit $$ to get lead shipped half way across the country. I wished I lived as close to BAC as you do. It would save me some time! You also have some of the worlds best dirt bike single track there too. I may be more jealous of that!

BACO’s Website is a bummer in that sense, the Picture of the Bullet is not always a Correct Representation of the Bullet you are Buying, Same exact thing goes for their Bullet Mold Bullet Pics, Some are correct representations & some are not. After the bad experience with the .442-400s Ogive shape, I ended up Sticking with their .444 Diameter PP Bullets, I have shot their .444-450s, and they did VERY Well for me :lewis: they look just like the .444-400 (my favorite) Just a little longer.

My next trip over there i will look at ALL of their .442s and see if they all have that same Shaped Ogive as the 442-400s I had bad luck with?

There is a Mountain right here on the edge of Town where they Ride Dirt Bikes HEAVY, Some of the Hills they Climb is Mind BOGGLING, Stuff that you can not hardly Walk up, I mean you have to Grab Brush & Limbs to help pull yourself up, Many of these Hills are over 100 Yards Long, My Dad looked at me and said “Can you believe that 💩, How do they live through that?” I Gaurantee ya there have been MANY @sses busted up there 🤣
 
BACO’s Website is a bummer in that sense, the Picture of the Bullet is not always a Correct Representation of the Bullet you are Buying, Same exact thing goes for their Bullet Mold Bullet Pics, Some are correct representations & some are not. After the bad experience with the .442-400s Ogive shape, I ended up Sticking with their .444 Diameter PP Bullets, I have shot their .444-450s, and they did VERY Well for me :lewis: they look just like the .444-400 (my favorite) Just a little longer.

My next trip over there i will look at ALL of their .442s and see if they all have that same Shaped Ogive as the 442-400s I had bad luck with?

There is a Mountain right here on the edge of Town where they Ride Dirt Bikes HEAVY, Some of the Hills they Climb is Mind BOGGLING, Stuff that you can not hardly Walk up, I mean you have to Grab Brush & Limbs to help pull yourself up, Many of these Hills are over 100 Yards Long, My Dad looked at me and said “Can you believe that 💩, How do they live through that?” I Gaurantee ya there have been MANY @sses busted up there 🤣

I received the 442-500 and had a chance to shoot them today along side the 442-380. The 500 appears to simply have a longer bearing surface and a similar or identical ogive. The 380 grain bullet ogive is about 60% of the overall length. The 500 grain bullet ogive is about 48% of the total bullet length. I thought the would shoot very differently because the center of gravity and motion should be in vastly different places. Here is what I found.
IMG_6905.JPGIMG_6894.JPG
I shot the group at just 39 yards. My range has a ditch from 39 to about 90 yards. I used the shorter distance so it should be more reflective of the load than the shooter trying to figure out his soule sight picture. The group size is essentially identical.

I am not sure how much of the group size is due to me. 80 (wt) grains is the only charge and the 45 cal wool wad is the only combo I have tried. I am going to order some 444 diameter bullets and see if the group will improve. Intuitively, I think the 442 shaped ogive should give a higher B.C.
 
I looked at them yesterday in BACO, They definitely have that same Ogive shape as the .442-400s that i had bad luck with. I do like the looks of The 500s better due to the Longer Bearing surface. The .444s are definitely my Favorites

When you size these .444s (Just ironing) You want to be careful as the Bases are SUPER Sharp (Which is a GOOD thing :lewis:) Just be aware that they Can & Will Cut the Paper like a Razor around the Base edge. This is why i tried the .442 Diameters, I really needed a .442, But that is when I found out that they are VERY Different looking Bullets
wBrUGD8.jpg
 
The above picture is WAY Back before i had my .442 Sizer.

I ended up Buying a .442 Push through Bullet Sizer a few years back from a Guy on the Castboolit Forum (Buckshot) I bought this Die for just this purpose, Sizing these .444s to .442, I pre lube the Die, And Lube the Bullets well by Rolling them across an RCBS Lube Pad, I then Push them through BASE FIRST, You want to keep your Bases SHARP, Since that is actually what steers the Bullet :lewis:
 
If you don’t use plenty of lube you will Distort/Ruin the Bullet Nose. This is why i say pre Lube the Sizer die, and Lube the Bullets well before Sizing. When well lubed they will slip through the Sizer Die near effortlessly. These BACO PP Bullets are Swaged of PURE Lead
 

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