Crud ring

I see a lot of people blame the crud ring with T7, on the 209 primer. Why is that, how did you come to that conclusion and what have you done to eliminate or minimize it?

When I shot T7 I switched from 209s to variflames using small pistol primers and the crud ring all but vanished. Never had a crud ring using musket or #11 caps. Also, I found 2f T7 left less of a ring than 3f.
Went to Swiss black. Virtually the same velocities. No fuss at all.

When I bought my 209x50 Encore barrel I used T7 for the ease of dropping 2 pellets in the barrel. Bought the T7 primers which are reduced power primers. Hated the crude ring and when I read about BH209 I bought some and it’s the only powder I use. Manufacture recommends 209 magnum primers which I use.
First trip to the range with BH209 I fired 20 shots without swabbing barrel. 20’th round seated as easy as the first.

HHI6818 said:

When I bought my 209x50 Encore barrel I used T7 for the ease of dropping 2 pellets in the barrel. Bought the T7 primers which are reduced power primers. Hated the crude ring and when I read about BH209 I bought some and it’s the only powder I use. Manufacture recommends 209 magnum primers which I use.
First trip to the range with BH209 I fired 20 shots without swabbing barrel. 20’th round seated as easy as the first.

Click to expand...

Exactly!

Crud ring. It's not only a T7 problem. I shot a few Blue MZ pellets a couple weeks ago with Fed 209A primers and the second sabot would really tough to seat and the third sabot down the bore was almost impossible.

Took the BP out, shined a light down the bore and roughly 2 inches, maybe less beyond the BP looked like asphalt.

I still have a lot of those Pellets and will have to swab the bore if I use Blue MZ or get a weaker primer made to lessen the issue..

Chick said:

I see a lot of people blame the crud ring with T7, on the 209 primer. Why is that, how did you come to that conclusion and what have you done to eliminate or minimize it?

Click to expand...

I shoot a lot more T7 than I do BH basically because of the price difference and over the years I have found a combination of tactic to reduce the effects of the 'crud ring'

The first thing I did to reduce the effects of the 'crud ring' was to use the coolest 209 shotgun primer I could find. So in the beginning I was using the T7 ML primers and the really old Remington 209-4 primer. I chose these cooler primers because I knew shooting caps all day really did not show a great deal of the 'crud ring' effect. Shooting these cooler shotgun primers did make a somewhat of a difference in the amount of the 'crud ring'.

The second thing I found after doing a lot of research was the materials I was using for cleaning and lubrication in the bore were probably the biggest reason I was developing a noticeable 'crud ring'. Several good friends of mine suggested cleaning the bore with alcohol prior to shooting to get the lubricants out. Really didn't make a large difference because yes I was removing the bulk of the lubricants from the surface of the bore - I was not getting it out of the pores of the bore. You need heat for that. The real difference was the what I was lubing the barrel with - it was real bore OIL, it was a petroleum based product. While T7 is not Black Powder (and we all know what real oil and real BP really do not make a good mix). While T7 is not real BP it still has some of the properties of real BP. Petroleum burns and creates a residue then in combination with the powder residue there is the development of the 'crud ring' at the top of the powder column and under the base of the projectile. Several people suggested get the real oil out of the barrel. Also NO Teflon products - it really burns icky.

The first fully synthetic oil that I used was Slip 2000, no petroleum and no Teflon. Shooting with this lubricant really reduced the effects of the 'crud ring'. The more times I shot the rifle the less the effects showed up. Eventually I had all the old stuff cleaned out of the pores. Slip 2000 is a great oil but it is a heavy thick oil! With a little more research I found Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner - really good stuff.

Today and many years later I shoot basically W209's - 120 gr. Vol of T72f and 300 grain bullets most of the time. Normally I can go as many as 4-5 shots before there is an indication of a 'crud ring'. To clear the 'crud ring' I will run a slightly damp Blue Windex patch - push right through the ring. Load up and shoot again. As long as the patch stays slightly damp not matter how black it is it will continue to clean the ring.

So in my little world T7 is not a real problem once the bore has been conditioned and broken in.

sabotloader said:

I shoot a lot more T7 than I do BH basically because of the price difference and over the years I have found a combination of tactic to reduce the effects of the 'crud ring'

The first thing I did to reduce the effects of the 'crud ring' was to use the coolest 209 shotgun primer I could find. So in the beginning I was using the T7 ML primers and the really old Remington 209-4 primer. I chose these cooler primers because I knew shooting caps all day really did not show a great deal of the 'crud ring' effect. Shooting these cooler shotgun primers did make a somewhat of a difference in the amount of the 'crud ring'.

The second thing I found after doing a lot of research was the materials I was using for cleaning and lubrication in the bore were probably the biggest reason I was developing a noticeable 'crud ring'. Several good friends of mine suggested cleaning the bore with alcohol prior to shooting to get the lubricants out. Really didn't make a large difference because yes I was removing the bulk of the lubricants from the surface of the bore - I was not getting it out of the pores of the bore. You need heat for that. The real difference was the what I was lubing the barrel with - it was real bore OIL, it was a petroleum based product. While T7 is not Black Powder (and we all know what real oil and real BP really do not make a good mix). While T7 is not real BP it still has some of the properties of real BP. Petroleum burns and creates a residue then in combination with the powder residue there is the development of the 'crud ring' at the top of the powder column and under the base of the projectile. Several people suggested get the real oil out of the barrel. Also NO Teflon products - it really burns icky.

The first fully synthetic oil that I used was Slip 2000, no petroleum and no Teflon. Shooting with this lubricant really reduced the effects of the 'crud ring'. The more times I shot the rifle the less the effects showed up. Eventually I had all the old stuff cleaned out of the pores. Slip 2000 is a great oil but it is a heavy thick oil! With a little more research I found Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner - really good stuff.

Today and many years later I shoot basically W209's - 120 gr. Vol of T72f and 300 grain bullets most of the time. Normally I can go as many as 4-5 shots before there is an indication of a 'crud ring'. To clear the 'crud ring' I will run a slightly damp Blue Windex patch - push right through the ring. Load up and shoot again. As long as the patch stays slightly damp not matter how black it is it will continue to clean the ring.

So in my little world T7 is not a real problem once the bore has been conditioned and broken in.

Click to expand...

That is the best explanation and run down, I have ever heard, on the crud ring. The thing I do not understand is that Hodgden told me to use the hottest primer I could get, to fire the T7. Exactly the same thing that Western told me to do with BH 209. I fought the crud ring and group consistency, until I finally came up with a method that had me totally cleaning the bore out after ever shot, using Bore Butter, then cleaning all of that out, firing several primers, then loading, shooting and start all over. It was a major pain, but I finally got consistent groups. Then, I found BH209, and it all changed. The only thing I don't like about it, is the price.

I never had a problem with crud ring.
Mostly because I never made it a problem. I just carried on shooting and swabbing between shots as part of the norm for shooting inlines.
I still got several lbs of T7 and Pyrodex RS. I don’t make it a big deal to switch to a more expensive powder because of said crud ring.
What I like is I watch the Exchange buy and sell and get T7 anf Pyro RS for cheap!

Chick said:

That is the best explanation and run down, I have ever heard, on the crud ring. The thing I do not understand is that Hodgden told me to use the hottest primer I could get, to fire the T7. Exactly the same thing that Western told me to do with BH 209. I fought the crud ring and group consistency, until I finally came up with a method that had me totally cleaning the bore out after ever shot, using Bore Butter, then cleaning all of that out, firing several primers, then loading, shooting and start all over. It was a major pain, but I finally got consistent groups. Then, I found BH209, and it all changed. The only thing I don't like about it, is the price.

Click to expand...

Actually, I used Bore butter for several years, against the advice of every body, but it works - why? it is all natural no petroleum, no Teflon, not much of anything. So ya it not really a good bore protector at all over the long run. I actually found that if you applied BB to the bore while the bore was hot!! you really didn't that big build up of BB. I still use on my trap chokes - does a really good job.

BH has made life easier for most everybody. It is a very good powder and if I wouldn't shoot as much as I do then... That's it - I just need to quit playing and just hunt - then I could afford to shoot BH - well that won't happen anytime soon - I hope!

JMG1894 said:

I never had a problem with crud ring.
Mostly because I never made it a problem. I just carried on shooting and swabbing between shots as part of the norm for shooting inlines.
I still got several lbs of T7 and Pyrodex RS. I don’t make it a big deal to switch to a more expensive powder because of said crud ring.
What I like is I watch the Exchange buy and sell and get T7 anf Pyro RS for cheap!

Click to expand...

It really is like most things in life! There is a learning curve and if you learn the curve it really isn't a problem. One of the things that sets human apart from other species is that humans can adapt! We may be losing a lot of that ability with these new generations but being able to adapt is huge! Most of us do it every day on the job!

The best thing about T7 is the empty boxes , the 54 caliber box holds a 45 bullet in a sabot very nicely.
As far as the crud ring goes Mike covered it well the only thing he did not mention is the altitude makes a difference so does the oil in the barrel and how well you remove it before firing the first shot.
I never did get it to work in my side locks without a wad when shooting PRB. After I got a case and a half of BH on a Walmart close out sale for less than 15 dollars a can I never looked back.

Lee 9 said:

The best thing about T7 is the empty boxes , the 54 caliber box holds a 45 bullet in a sabot very nicely.
As far as the crud ring goes Mike covered it well the only thing he did not mention is the altitude makes a difference so does the oil in the barrel and how well you remove it before firing the first shot.
I never did get it to work in my side locks without a wad when shooting PRB. After I got a case and a half of BH on a Walmart close out sale for less than 15 dollars a can I never looked back.

Click to expand...

If you were using T7 pellets in a sidelock no wonder it didn't work. I hope you didn't use BH in a sidelock....

Lee 9 said:

The best thing about T7 is the empty boxes , the 54 caliber box holds a 45 bullet in a sabot very nicely.
As far as the crud ring goes Mike covered it well the only thing he did not mention is the altitude makes a difference so does the oil in the barrel and how well you remove it before firing the first shot.
I never did get it to work in my side locks without a wad when shooting PRB. After I got a case and a half of BH on a Walmart close out sale for less than 15 dollars a can I never looked back.

Click to expand...

I shoot T7 at Rhondy events all the time in Renegades - but I do have to use a wad! the burning temperature of T7 burns the patch up really well the wad protects the patch.

I should say for accuracy I needed to use a wad - the Rene would always shoot but with out a wad accuracy suffered a ton!

Sabotloader would your routine work equally as well with real Black powder ?

The 'crud ring' is a condition that results because of the caramelization deposit at the rim of it's ignition.
Triple Seven is apparently an gluconic acid (sugar-based) propellant that is far more efficient than blackpowder or Pyrodex, with corresponding increases in muzzle velocity.
Understanding the characteristics of a given propellant is the first step in it's proper utilization.
I love it.
Just treat it like Martha would in the kitchen and you'll be fine.

Dougs136Schwartz said:

Sabotloader would your routine work equally as well with real Black powder ?

Click to expand...

When I do shoot real BP - I shoot GOEX in the same sidlelocks that I do T7 and I do same thing with GOEX as I do T7. Can not ever remember shooting GOEX with a shotgun primer though.

yes, sabotloaders routine works perfect for black too. I get a crud ring with real black and 209 shotgun primers. The crud ring seems even more pronounced in smaller calibers I think. (.32/.36.. 209 ignition) With those, swab between shots was just routine. Much less or almost null in all cases with cap primer.

sabotloader has done a great job of analyzing and minimizing the 777 crud ring.

Triple Seven is a hot burning powder. Crud rings form when temperatures go high enough to fuse the potassium carbonate and potassium chloride residues. Heavy charges of Triple Seven powder burn very hot and contribute significantly to the crud ring problem.

By loading on a squeaky clean barrel, avoiding petroleum based lubricants and observing a wait time; i don't have a problem with crud rings in my conventional muzzleloaders with their #11 caps. My inline guns that use #11 caps can sometimes be reloaded three or four times before swabbing is needed providing some rules are observed:

1. Powder charge is <100 measured grains.

2. A 3-5 minute wait time is observed between shots.

3. Avoiding petroleum based lubes.

Thanks guys when and if i ever get time I have a Gibbs and a couple of BPCR that i will be shooting Swiss .