GOEX vs. Swiss

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I’ve always been a GOEX guy. I hardly ever shoot any of the black powder subs. Also, I’ve never tried Swiss black powder even though I’ve seen numerous reports that it produces better accuracy, is cleaner burning and load for load yields higher and more consistent velocities than GOEX.

So after many years of resisting the lure of Swiss I decided to get some and see for myself. This is a report of my side-by-side comparison of Swiss and GOEX in the 2F and 3F granulations of each.

For this exercise I chose to use my TC Renegade with a .45 caliber 1:30” twist Green Mountain barrel and shoot full bore conicals. I chose this gun and bullet for three reasons; the gun wears a Simmons 4X ProDiamond shotgun scope to keep aiming errors to a minimum, it’s already zeroed in for the load I planned to shoot, and I’ve shot the gun and bullet enough to know what kind of accuracy can be expected.

I installed a new AMPCO nipple at the beginning the shooting session and followed the following procedures for the test:

1. Four targets were shot at 100 yards, with five shots on each target and a different powder used for each target. All shots were over a chronograph 10 feet from the muzzle.

2. The first shot on each target was from a cold clean barrel with a three to five minute cooling period between each of the following four shots.

3. The bore was wiped between each shot with both sides of a fresh patch lightly moistened with 91% Isopropyl alcohol - one stroke down and up with each side. The bore was fully cleaned between targets.

4. For the first shot on each target, the bullet was seated until it just touched the powder. Then a stop collar on the loading rod was locked in place 1/8” above the muzzle and the load compressed that one-eighth inch. The stop collar remained locked in that position for the following four shots to assure the consistent load compression. The stop collar was reset in this manner for each target.

5. Pre-weighed powder charges of 85 grains actual weight were used.

6. The bullets were flat nose conicals cast from pure soft lead then sized and lubed to .452 diameter. They were weight sorted to assure that all were between 464.0 and 464.5 grains, and inspected to assure all had undamaged bases with sharp corners.

7. A 1/2” diameter 1/8” thick unlubed wool wad was used under the base of the bullets.

8. Winchester #11 magnum percussion caps from the same tin were used.

9. Shots were from a bench using a Caldwell shooting rest under the foreend and a rabbit ear bag under the butt stock.

Here are the charges ready to be shot.

47129095551_5f8cc418a0_b.jpg


Here’s the shooting bench and range.

47129095381_f68cdb6d8e_b.jpg


32187024367_112625284f_b.jpg


Here are the four targets.

32187022467_eeceb1b60b_b.jpg


32187022307_34ace1cd59_b.jpg


32187022167_702c6b9ce2_b.jpg


32187022007_6f8bcdff60_b.jpg


Here are the cleaning patches that were used to wipe the bore between the fourth and fifth shot with each powder.

32187023197_e064d00262_b.jpg


And here’s a summary of the results.

32187022597_c2e0f62dea_b.jpg


You may draw your own conclusions. It’s pretty clear that Swiss produces significantly higher velocities. I didn’t find a noticeable difference with respect to the degree of fouling produced by the two powders. However, that may be because I was wiping the bore between each shot. Results may be different with a long shot string without wiping. I’ll never know because I always wipe between shots.

With respect to accuracy potential, I found no significant difference between the two powders – at least not within my shooting ability or with this particular bullet and load. One day I’ll try a similar side-by-side comparison with patched balls in my .54 Great Plains flintlock. I’ll likely be a GOEX guy forever. I like the stuff and I like supporting an American company.
 
I have not used real black powder since Pyrodex came out, but, this is very interesting. .
 
I shoot Swiss a lot . I shoot both BPCR and Long Range Muzzle Loader . All top shooters use Swiss. It is a little more hotter powder and slightly more consistent. This difference is not noticeable at closer yardages , but out past 100 and beyond you will begin to notice difference. Also one advantaged of Goex is fouling stays softer. One other thing your extreme spread should be in single digits
 
That is a great side by side comparison and the groups at 350 yds are very respectable too.
 
Semisane's test results mirror my testing of Swiss/OE vs. Goex/Schuetzen. If you don't wipe between shots Goex/Schuetzen builds up way more fouling but it remains fairly soft. Swiss/OE doesn't foul near as much but the fouling seem harder and drier. I really like Swiss and OE 1.5F in my .451 rifles with 450-530 grain bullets. The Swiss/OE 2F are great in roundball rifles.
 
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That is a great side by side comparison and the groups at 350 yds are very respectable too.

Back in 2015 I did try a little long range shooting with 85 grains GOEX FFFg at 200 and 300 yards. Here are those targets.

29747022057_459d08dd83_b.jpg


42874562200_e58c5b82c6_c.jpg


The reason the groups are to the right of the bull is because the scope is offset a bit to the left of the bore. The gun had been sighted in for 100 yards. When I tried the longer ranges I adjusted the scope for elevation, but not for windage. With the scope offset the way it is, the farther you shoot - the more the groups move right.
 
I believe one of the differences between Swiss and Goex, and possibly other European black powders, is their granulations SEEM to be finer than ours by half an F.. That would account for the higher velocities and lesser fouling. I read an article a long time ago about Swiss and how its made. To say they are most particular about every aspect of production and quality control would be a whopping understatement!
 
I will respond with a Copy and Paste of my Posts from the Big Muzzleloading Forum, I’m not gonna type all of this Back out, most of what i say here is Replies to others, You should figure it out


There is a Good reason Top World Class Shooters use Swiss, It Wins :) Look up BPCR Mid, and Long Range Score cards that show their load Data, One thing you will find that Most all of them have in common, The Powder they Shoot, You will never guess what it is? :) If Goex was winning, Believe me these World Class Shooters would be using it!!

When you speak to a Few “World Champion” Shooters Such as Dave Gullo, and Lee Shavers (Lee Shaver’s is a 2 Time World Champion) And they tell you that they DONT get the accuracy from Goex, Goex Olde E That they do with Swiss, They have Tried it, it Didn’t Perform nowhere near as well for them. What else needs to be Said? If Goex was really that Great, BELIEVE me these BIG BOYS would be using it! Most have tried it, it Failed to give Accuracy of Swiss, They Ditched it and Have stayed with Swiss

I have 1 experience with Goex Olde E and it was NO GOOD for me. I wanted to compare it to Swiss 2F, i Weighed The Charges on a Beam Scale to the 10th of a Grain, The Rifle, and load i chose was VERY proven with 80 Grains of Swiss 2F Powder, Bullet inside of Bullet holes as long as i did my Part, Again this Proven load used 80 Weight Grains of Swiss 2F Powder, So for the Olde E 2F test i chose 80 Weight Grains as well.

I sat down at my Bench and Shot 3 Shots of Goex Olde E (my intentions were a 5 Shot Group) But after 3 Shots i Could CLEARLY See that the Goex Olde E load was NOT working! Remember, this same Rifle, Bullet, Wool Wad Combo With 80 Grains of Swiss 2F will Shoot 1/2” or Better! After seeing how HORRIBLE the Olde E 2F 3 shots had just Done, I loaded up with 80 Grains of Swiss 2F to make my last 2 Shots, Those 2 Shots went Through eachother, as they have MANY MANY times before with this Same Load. I plan to Experiment a Little bit more with this Can of Goex Olde E 2F when the Weather Gets Better, But my first impression was NOT good, And mirrored what a Few “World Class” Shooters Told me They Experienced with it
3zv9LGxl.jpg
 
(Post From Fleener)
I am a long range ML shooter and I do shoot swiss and have for years. There is a reason that most of us use swiss and it is not because it cost more. The powder we use is just one variable in the shooting. Barrel, bullet design, wads, bullet hardness, powder, physical condition, mental management all play into how well you shoot. Oh and dont forget being able to read the conditions and being able to change your sight settings. All these things will have an impact on your scores.

I have had friends try to switch back to Goex to save some money, but they end up simply going back to Swiss.

I have placed in the top 3 in quite a few matches at Oak Ridge, Friendship, and at 3 World Long Range matches shooting on the USA team. I have 3 National records and one World record at 900 yards shooting swiss powder. I also hold the record at Oakridge for the most X's in the aggregate with 13. Now that does not mean you can not have success shooting Goex or other powders. Like I said, it is just one variable.

Fleener

(I have had Friends try to Switch back to Goex to save some money, but they end up simply going back to Swiss)

Fleener


(MY POST)
I was told this EXACT same thing from the Co. i bought the Goex Olde E from. In fact i was told this from my very beginning in Muzzleloading. I was also told that i “might not” see much difference out to 100 yards between Goex and Swiss? But Since accuracy was, and is my Number 1 priority in this Sport, and i planned to Stretch out as far as I possibly could, I Chose to use Swiss powder from my very beginning, and i have shot it Exclusively in all of my Rifles from my Beginning.

Fact is, and this is in NO WAY intended to sound arrogant, or down anyone’s ability, or lack there of. But Not everyone is capable of Shooting Bullet holes through bullet holes, Not everyone has Rifles that are Capable of shooting Bullet Holes Through Bullet holes, Not everyone has Sight Setups on their Rifles that would help them achieve this. As Fleener stated above, there are MANY variables in bringing it all together, Powder is 1 of them. And as i stated above, Look up Long Range BPCR Score Cards that Shows Their Load Data, These guy’s Could Obviously shoot ANY powder they wanted to, and at the level of competition they are in, Don’t you think they are gonna shoot the most accurate powder they can get their hands on? OF COURSE they are!! Do you not think they have Tried/Tested the other brands of Powder on their way to the Top? Of course they have! Fact is, You will find the VAST Majority of Top shooters in this Sport are Shooting Swiss Powder. Think about it, If Goex was as good, or better, you would see a LOT more of it being used by these Guy’s, Who wouldn’t want to save a few extra dollars if there Truly was no difference in Accuracy of these Powders??

I hear Folks complain about the Price of Swiss Powder, I Personally feel it is the Cheapest part of the Sport for me, When i take in to account how much i have in My Rifles, My sight setups, my Bullet Molds, etc.

I have said it before, and will say it again, Shoot whatever Powder you like! If you are getting Results that make YOU feel good, that is ALL that matters!! But if you feel you, and your Rifle are Capable of shooting better, But just can’t seem to get there no matter how hard you try with your current Powder? Try a Can of Swiss Powder, What’s an extra 6-8 Dollars to Try it?

The type of Bullet you use for your Twist Rate, The Quality of Barrel, If you are a Caster, your attention to Detail (especially the Bullet Bases) The type of Over Powder Wad used, The Lube you use, ALL of these things come in to play and are VERY important in getting the Most out of your Rifle.
 
you hit the nail on the head, I shoot with Art , at Friendship and Oak Ridge and we all use Swiss at long range, started in 2001 with Swiss sometimes experiment with OE , but always go back to Swiss
 
I shot at Oakridge last year, being a rookie and my first time at long range event. I had lots of advice and help. But when it was all over one of these world class shooters that shot on my squad and won the 1000 yard medal and over all. Looked me staight in the eye and pointed his finger at me and said quit using goex.I just started shooting swiss 2f in my henry build and not have enough range time to give reports because I had repair work on my lock and did not get it back until late October .full blown hunting time for me then.just got to the range last week to shoot .whanted to get to Oakridge this year ,but will pass due to lack of gun range work.Bottom line is that yes I was the only one shooting goex there.
 
I shot at Oakridge last year, being a rookie and my first time at long range event. I had lots of advice and help. But when it was all over one of these world class shooters that shot on my squad and won the 1000 yard medal and over all. Looked me staight in the eye and pointed his finger at me and said quit using goex.I just started shooting swiss 2f in my henry build and not have enough range time to give reports because I had repair work on my lock and did not get it back until late October .full blown hunting time for me then.just got to the range last week to shoot .whanted to get to Oakridge this year ,but will pass due to lack of gun range work.Bottom line is that yes I was the only one shooting goex there.

Good Post Wildcat2! I like seeing these posts/comments from you guy’s that are on the Firing line Competing (Proving Grounds) When World Class Shooters tell you to AVOID Goex, That say’s ALL that needs said for me! I have been Warned by a Few them as well. When I walked in BACO and Bought the Can of Goex Olde E to Test i got a Lot of Smiles over it. As if you “You know better than that!” I had to try it for myself, it was 21 Bucks, Big deal, My Only regret after my 1 and only outing with this Can of Goex Olde E, is that i wish i had added 6-7 Dollars and Brought home another Can of Swiss 2F
 
I joined our local muzzleloader club a couple of years ago when I got into traditional muzzleloaders. They all shoot goex that they buy threw the club. When I got a 5lb order of Swiss from main powder for my long range gun late in the summer I started using it in my round ball gun. Our club pres.challenge me to show the difference between the two. in witch I told him about my experience from Oakridge.that coming from a man that has more medals then coins in my ashtray was all the more convincing for me. When the article of scores ,gun types ,bullets, powder that each shooter did in muzzle blast mag. I then saw that they all shot swiss and most used paper patch swaged bullets. And that is where I am at now .you will see posts as I work on loads for my henry.Thanks.
 
I’ve always been a GOEX guy. I hardly ever shoot any of the black powder subs. Also, I’ve never tried Swiss black powder even though I’ve seen numerous reports that it produces better accuracy, is cleaner burning and load for load yields higher and more consistent velocities than GOEX.

So after many years of resisting the lure of Swiss I decided to get some and see for myself. This is a report of my side-by-side comparison of Swiss and GOEX in the 2F and 3F granulations of each.

For this exercise I chose to use my TC Renegade with a .45 caliber 1:30” twist Green Mountain barrel and shoot full bore conicals. I chose this gun and bullet for three reasons; the gun wears a Simmons 4X ProDiamond shotgun scope to keep aiming errors to a minimum, it’s already zeroed in for the load I planned to shoot, and I’ve shot the gun and bullet enough to know what kind of accuracy can be expected.

I installed a new AMPCO nipple at the beginning the shooting session and followed the following procedures for the test:

1. Four targets were shot at 100 yards, with five shots on each target and a different powder used for each target. All shots were over a chronograph 10 feet from the muzzle.

2. The first shot on each target was from a cold clean barrel with a three to five minute cooling period between each of the following four shots.

3. The bore was wiped between each shot with both sides of a fresh patch lightly moistened with 91% Isopropyl alcohol - one stroke down and up with each side. The bore was fully cleaned between targets.

4. For the first shot on each target, the bullet was seated until it just touched the powder. Then a stop collar on the loading rod was locked in place 1/8” above the muzzle and the load compressed that one-eighth inch. The stop collar remained locked in that position for the following four shots to assure the consistent load compression. The stop collar was reset in this manner for each target.

5. Pre-weighed powder charges of 85 grains actual weight were used.

6. The bullets were flat nose conicals cast from pure soft lead then sized and lubed to .452 diameter. They were weight sorted to assure that all were between 464.0 and 464.5 grains, and inspected to assure all had undamaged bases with sharp corners.

7. A 1/2” diameter 1/8” thick unlubed wool wad was used under the base of the bullets.

8. Winchester #11 magnum percussion caps from the same tin were used.

9. Shots were from a bench using a Caldwell shooting rest under the foreend and a rabbit ear bag under the butt stock.

Here are the charges ready to be shot.

47129095551_5f8cc418a0_b.jpg


Here’s the shooting bench and range.

47129095381_f68cdb6d8e_b.jpg


32187024367_112625284f_b.jpg


Here are the four targets.

32187022467_eeceb1b60b_b.jpg


32187022307_34ace1cd59_b.jpg


32187022167_702c6b9ce2_b.jpg


32187022007_6f8bcdff60_b.jpg


Here are the cleaning patches that were used to wipe the bore between the fourth and fifth shot with each powder.

32187023197_e064d00262_b.jpg


And here’s a summary of the results.

32187022597_c2e0f62dea_b.jpg


You may draw your own conclusions. It’s pretty clear that Swiss produces significantly higher velocities. I didn’t find a noticeable difference with respect to the degree of fouling produced by the two powders. However, that may be because I was wiping the bore between each shot. Results may be different with a long shot string without wiping. I’ll never know because I always wipe between shots.

With respect to accuracy potential, I found no significant difference between the two powders – at least not within my shooting ability or with this particular bullet and load. One day I’ll try a similar side-by-side comparison with patched balls in my .54 Great Plains flintlock. I’ll likely be a GOEX guy forever. I like the stuff and I like supporting an American company.
Was that a LRH barrel? I am not familiar with a 45 caliber Renegade GM barrel other than the Long range Hunter. Also, how was the recoil with that 3fff load?
 
Well guys, I guess I should just go buy some Swiss 2F. It likely would have been cheaper in the long run. When you can close up groups by using components that only cost an extra nickel per shot , it is cheaper to get some good groups and be happy that sit there mad cause you dont know exactly why you are getting fliers. I put a new peep sight on my TC Hawken and saw no improvement and even had bigger groups with a new bottle of Old Eynsford. The last bottle was better , but that would be odd if true. I only shoot 50 grains anyway @ 50 yds. Swiss will be 23.6 cents per shot. Old Eynsford is 20.4 cents per shot. I added this up and makes no sense to not buy what many say is more accurate. I can also easily cut a few grains off to make it equal. I only shoot 50 gr. cause my patches tear after about 55 gr. . It is a new Green Mountain barrel and hope th elands dull down some. I could get the same vel. from 47 gr. of Swiss anyway.. I will see for myself if it is worth the money. Maybe some barrels like Goex more than other brands, who knows . I cant argue with the original poster though. I sure hope the Swiss helps the groups of mine.
 
Well everyone, I bought the last pound of Swiss the guns shop had. It was $34.71 with tax. I did a little shooting with it today One 5 shot group that did not do good. I think the flier was the 1st shot. I did not shoot a cap off first and for some reason the 1st cap did not go off. I put on a new #11 non mag. Cci and it id a split second hang fire. I think this was the flier. The other 4 shots were in 2" . This was only @ 55yds however. The next 4 shot group was 1 1/2" @ 55 yds . This is as good as I ever did but have done as good. I think it shoots better cause 1 1/2" was not real common , but have down it before. Tomorrow I will shoot GOEX, Old Eynsord and Swiss. I also shot Speer round balls and my home made round balls. This may not hurt my groups, but I am sure it doesnt help neither.
 

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