Bh209 by weight/ volume school me please

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Oli

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went to cabelas, picked up my powder, some powder tubes and everything needed to get rolling. How do you measure the 209. The guy who helped me said just fill the tube half way between 90 and 100 for a 95 grain load, seemed a little iffy to me?
Thanks
 
Just do it by volume and save everyone comments, because they are all different and western suggests by volume
 
Oli, if you purchased the tubes i think you did, be forewarned the marks are not very accurate. You should get yourself a device designed to measure powder. Cabela has several. Something like:




714741.jpg
 
What Ron said-If you bought the Blackhorn tubes mine are off by about 10 Gr. to the high side. The T/C clear plastic measure is the most accurate I have found. Just be consistent in what you do.
 
went to cabelas, picked up my powder, some powder tubes and everything needed to get rolling. How do you measure the 209. The guy who helped me said just fill the tube half way between 90 and 100 for a 95 grain load, seemed a little iffy to me?
Thanks

Oli, I think the real key to this question is consistentcy! What ever you do - do it the same each time...

As Ron said the tubes you are using and the tubes I am using, that provide increments, are not always totally accurate as the amount. But, if the tubes were designed for black powder they will be in the area???? Just make sure you are consistent in the way you fill them.

In addition I would suggest... If you are a long range target shooter, the way to be most accurate is to weigh the charges using the BH conversion factor. Another slight problem with BH is the same weight will not produce the same pressure/velocity from LOT to LOT (not bottle to bottle but lot to lot. Because of this Western powders and General Dynamics have always recommended using a volume measure while loading. Recently General Dynamic of Canada has indicated from batch 35 and on the powder batches will be consistent.

One other little thought. Remember while BH is really a smokeless powder it has been manufactured to mimic real black powder. If your load varies 5-7 grains it will not be the drastic pressure change that real Smokeless Powder would exhibit.

I am a hunter and recreational shooter, when I use BH I use a brass volume measure to fill the tubes. Again consistency is the key! Load each load in the volume measure the same way each time.

I do prefer a brass type volume measure to a plastic measure.

Hope some of this might help...
 
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Thanks for the input! It is awesome to hear what the people in the know have to say. Gun gets delivered this week. Rick's a happy man.
 
Oli....if you use the plastic measure, take a dryer sheet and forceps and wipe the inside of the tube well. Plastic likes to make static and powder can hang up inside of it and get tiresome at times. Brass barreled measures don't seem to have the static that plastic does. If you use premeasured powder in plastic tubes do the same wipe out with a dryer sheet and you'll be way on top of the game.
 
Everyone has already covered the main points which are weighing or volume measuring doesn't really matter if you use a good, accurate scale or volume measure so that you have consistency. That said, I personally think using a good reloading powder measure to throw a charge, again if you already have one. I personally use a RCBS Chargemaster to weigh my charges because I already had one and think it is the easiest and fastest way to accurately pre-measure a bunch of powder tubes before a shooting session but I certainly wouldn't buy one just for weighing BH209 unless you are really planning on shooting a lot and/or have use for it with other reloading you do.
 
Combustion of Blackhorn 209 is the same as any other exothermic reaction. As long as the location on earth at which you weigh your charges does not change in latitude or altitude (longitude doesn't matter), X grains by weight of a consistently-mixed, unpolluted, specific chemical compound will always yield the same mass of that compound. Upon combustion in the natural atmosphere, that reaction will output thermal and mechanical energy equaling the total energy of the chemical bonds broken within the amount of compound involved. All other factors isolated, exact mass of chemicals involved (including atmospheric oxygen) governs the amount of energy released.

Measuring solids by volume accepts a variable amount of empty air space, randomly situated among the pieces of the solid being measured. That variation of mass within a static volume means an equal variation in total volume of the chemical compound (thus also its mass), which variation will be amplified during the chemical reaction of combustion, changing the amounts of thermal and mechanical energy produced.

Is it enough to make a difference in the trajectory of a saboted pistol bullet on a 120 yard deer shot? Probably not. I've done both; I get my best 200 yard groups with Blackhorn 209 by weighing 77 grain charges by weight to within 0.1 grain, but I have absolute confidence from range and field testing that 110 grains by volume - measured in the field with my T/C U-View Powder Measure - will hit in the vitals without any adjustment to the same point of aim established with 77 grain weighed charges. I might get 3" 5-shot groups instead of 1.5" at 200 yards, but the deer won't care. At any range where the variation in ratio of air to propellant in a volumetrically measured charge might have an effect, wind will have a greater and more variable effect anyway.

Western recommends measuring by volume from a safety perspective - they reasonably understand that there's someone out here who will attempt to convert X volume to 0.7X weight, or Y weight to 1.42Y volume, and mess up the math. Black powder muzzleloaders have been traditionally loaded with volume-measured powder charges; Western wisely encourages us to do the same with their BP substitute. They understand that not all shooters are rocket scientists. They want muzzleloading to be as safe as possible, regardless of an individual's mathematical aptitude.
 
Holy crap ! That made my head hurt ! I just realized I am more stupid than even I realized ! lol Im just joking around.

I
.........… I get my best 200 yard groups with Blackhorn 209 by weighing 77 grain charges by weight to within 0.1 grain, but I have absolute confidence from range and field testing that 110 grains by volume - measured in the field with my T/C U-View Powder Measure - will hit in the vitals without any adjustment to the same point of aim established with 77 grain weighed charges. I might get 3" 5-shot groups instead of 1.5" at 200 yards, but the deer won't care. ……....

I'm follow'n ya Doug! The only thing I could cipher out of that, was that groups were tighter at range when the charge was weighed to 0.1 grain, and that the group size might be doubled at 200yds when volume is used, I think...……

For most hunters, it won't matter at all. If one is trying to shoot the smallest group possible at 500yds, it might matter.
 
As an engineer, I have a hard time measuring a solid by volume. Variations in grains with loose fill versus packed fill could result in a big swing in charge weight. I weigh my charges because that's what I do with cartridge reloading. I do have a dilemma... Using a CVA Trophy Powder Measure (60-130 grains by volume) for 100 , 110, and 120 grains of Blackhorn 209, I did a 10-charge, weighted average for each of those volumes. Western Powders indicates volume X 0.7 to convert volume to weight but my average weights came out to 77.2 gr, 85.6 gr, and 93.4 gr... that is 10%, 11.17%, and 11.19% over the advertised 0.7X's conversion. I am going to repeat the process again using the CVA measure and I will try a different measure to note any differences. Opinions on suggested measures to use?
 
As an engineer, I have a hard time measuring a solid by volume. Variations in grains with loose fill versus packed fill could result in a big swing in charge weight. I weigh my charges because that's what I do with cartridge reloading. I do have a dilemma... Using a CVA Trophy Powder Measure (60-130 grains by volume) for 100 , 110, and 120 grains of Blackhorn 209, I did a 10-charge, weighted average for each of those volumes. Western Powders indicates volume X 0.7 to convert volume to weight but my average weights came out to 77.2 gr, 85.6 gr, and 93.4 gr... that is 10%, 11.17%, and 11.19% over the advertised 0.7X's conversion. I am going to repeat the process again using the CVA measure and I will try a different measure to note any differences. Opinions on suggested measures to use?
My T/C U-View measure and flask have been very easy to use. MrTom's tip to use dryer sheets to eliminate static is spot-on. I used the U-View measure at the range, starting at 90 grains by volume and moving up 5 grains after 5-shot groups until I found the sweet spot at 110 grains by volume with my favorite bullet/sabot. (I did not pack or shake the charges.) I then used that volume measure at home to average 5 charges on a digital scale at 77.08 grains. I adjusted a Lee Perfect Powder Measure to throw 77 grains by weight; those charges go into plastic tubes for range and field use.

I have a few dozen of the Western brand tubes marketed for BH209 that I use for that purpose (great for storage, but I don't rely on the graduation scales printed on them for anything). If I had it to do over again, I'd save a bunch of money and support a member here by buying Lane's tubes on this site (https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/wts-speedloaders-gunpowderstorage-lanes-tubes.24181/).

Finally (and this may explain the differences between my 77.08 grains-by-weight average for 110 grains-by-volume and your 85.6 grains-by-weight average for the same volume), all of my charges are from the same 5-pound jug. And again, I didn't shake or pack my measure in any way - just poured powder to the line. I bought 2 of those 5-pound jugs bearing same lot # at the same time, shortly after Western first offered them, so I'm comfortable sticking with my numbers for now since I still have about half of the second jug left. When those 2 jugs run out, I'll have to start all over based on how much denser your newer sampled Blackhorn seems to be. I've read a few posts on this forum indicating that BH209 has exhibited noticeable density and performance variations, lot to lot, over the years it has been available.
 
My T/C U-View measure and flask have been very easy to use. MrTom's tip to use dryer sheets to eliminate static is spot-on. I used the U-View measure at the range, starting at 90 grains by volume and moving up 5 grains after 5-shot groups until I found the sweet spot at 110 grains by volume with my favorite bullet/sabot. (I did not pack or shake the charges.) I then used that volume measure at home to average 5 charges on a digital scale at 77.08 grains. I adjusted a Lee Perfect Powder Measure to throw 77 grains by weight; those charges go into plastic tubes for range and field use.

I have a few dozen of the Western brand tubes marketed for BH209 that I use for that purpose (great for storage, but I don't rely on the graduation scales printed on them for anything). If I had it to do over again, I'd save a bunch of money and support a member here by buying Lane's tubes on this site (https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/wts-speedloaders-gunpowderstorage-lanes-tubes.24181/).

Finally (and this may explain the differences between my 77.08 grains-by-weight average for 110 grains-by-volume and your 85.6 grains-by-weight average for the same volume), all of my charges are from the same 5-pound jug. And again, I didn't shake or pack my measure in any way - just poured powder to the line. I bought 2 of those 5-pound jugs bearing same lot # at the same time, shortly after Western first offered them, so I'm comfortable sticking with my numbers for now since I still have about half of the second jug left. When those 2 jugs run out, I'll have to start all over based on how much denser your newer sampled Blackhorn seems to be. I've read a few posts on this forum indicating that BH209 has exhibited noticeable density and performance variations, lot to lot, over the years it has been available.

Thanks for the feedback! I definitely will rework my measurements because they are too far over max recommendation from Western.
 
I went back to the bench and conducted the volume/weight procedure TWO more times. The first test was performed using the CVA Trophy Measure and the second test was performed with a T/C See Thru Measure. I weighed 10 charges for volumes of 80 grains through 120 grains in 10 grain volume increases and computed the average weights for the given volumes. The test results for both of these test matched the results of my first test. For my lot of Blackhorn 209, the weight conversion multiplier is not 0.7 but 0.799. if I measure a 100 grain (by volume) charge using either measure, it will weigh, on average, 79.9 grains (by weight). All volume charges were poured using a brass powder flask and the charges were leveled at the top of the measure without packing the powder into the measure. As a word of caution to those who weigh their charges, don't assume one lot is the same as the next lot. Rework your powder charge curve from powder lot to powder lot.
 
Do as you will I always weigh mine Black Powder or sub . If you find an accurate load by weight and always weigh it will never change period Lot makes no difference , might take more or less but pound of feathers is a pound of feathers
 
Do as you will I always weigh mine Black Powder or sub . If you find an accurate load by weight and always weigh it will never change period Lot makes no difference , might take more or less but pound of feathers is a pound of feathers
Thanks! Weighing is the way to go...
 

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