Do we know who????

Does anyone know who generated, or rather did this test with the propellants and first published the results?

I often wondered why 4ffff was tested , instead of 2 or 3 fff in black powder. 4 ffff is only used for flintlock priming

45-70 said:

I often wondered why 4ffff was tested , instead of 2 or 3 fff in black powder. 4 ffff is only used for flintlock priming

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Isn’t KIK just a brand of black
Powder?

Don’t know but I have looked at that graph many many times .

Wakeman refers to Lyman Black Powder Manual and Lyman Ballistic Laboratories in a couple of his articles. He does not say the data on the graph is from them though. You could probably email him and ask. His email was something like [email protected] at one time.

Looks like it still is
https://www.randywakeman.com/contact.htm

I used to have a copy of the original, but can't seem to find it.

That is not the original though. That one has been doctored. The original just had the pressure lines, and no numbers in the left column. Those numbers were added by someone here, who may or may not identify himself.

It also doesn't specify powder amounts. Not accidentally.

KIK Black Powder was distributed by Western Powders previous to and at the time of this test.

The "firm tamp" on the Triple Se7en Pellets was to show how much more pressure is generated when you crack/chip/crush pellets. They are meant to be shot in their solid form for consistent normal pressures.

In the article with the graph he states 150gr by volume equivalents.
https://www.randywakeman.com/ArePelletsForDummies.htm

Warning: The above graph depicts 150 grain volumetric loading pressure traces measured under laboratory conditions via radial transducers. These loadings that MAY be in excess of manufacturer's recommendations. The highest pressure load combinations depicted here are recommended and touted by many: Knight Rifles, Hornady, Thompson, and others. I obviously do not suggest their use, for equally obvious reasons.

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I was getting at the original. That information was gathered in a Ballistics Lab, over 11 years ago. I seen the custom designed pressure barrel and equipment used to perform the testing along with the original document over 10 years ago.

RW was the first to post it publicly, AFAIK.

This is the original, and it's not accidentally missing information.

Still would like to know why 4ffff black was used

TO THOSE FOLLOWING...…….. DO NOT MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE ANY CHARGE, OF ANY PROPELLANT, FROM ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED WITHIN THIS POST! ONLY READ AND FOLLOW YOUR RIFLES OWNER'S MANUAL! DO NOT DEVIATE FROM YOUR RIFLES OWNER'S MANUAL!
THESE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERES ARE ONLY TO IDENTIFY ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS CONCERNING BARREL PRESSURES. NOT FOR DETERMINING ANY CHARGE FOR YOUR, OR ANYONE ELSE'S RIFLES. AGAIN, READ AND FOLLOW YOUR OWNER'S MANUAL ONLY!


So.....…… IF...….. I'm even close to understanding this, these tests were performed with 150gr equivalent charges, correct???????

So.....…. why isn't the pressure values indicated on the original graph??????

Because...….. the original pressure values are NOT printed on the original graph, then we can not, or should not, use pressures added to the graph we may have were correct?????

SO IF..……. this statement is true...…….. https://www.randywakeman.com/ArePelletsForDummies.htm
"Warning: The above graph depicts 150 grain volumetric loading pressure traces measured under laboratory conditions via radial transducers. These loadings that MAY be in excess of manufacturer's recommendations. The highest pressure load combinations depicted here are recommended and touted by many: Knight Rifles, Hornady, Thompson, and others. I obviously do not suggest their use, for equally obvious reasons."

This data would indicate that 150grs VOLUME of BH209, has no higher pressure than T7/2F, T7/3F, or T7 pellets when using 150grs VOLUME ??????

For my own interests and some comparing, I'd REALLY like to know what those pressures actually were.

IIRC that was also for a 250gr bullet. He mentioned the bullet weight in another article too...i think...Its been awhile. I would imagine the BH209 pressures would show a significant increase in peak if a 300gr was used.

GM54-120 said:

IIRC that was also for a 250gr bullet. He mentioned the bullet weight in another article too...i think...Its been awhile. I would imagine the BH209 pressures would show a significant increase in peak if a 300gr was used.

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Assume for all practical purposes, a 250gr bullet, same bullet, was used with all propellants.

He does mention: "A normal tamping of the sabot and powder (pellet column) can easily generate 40,000 PSI or more." Could one .. assume.. that the graph indicates that 150grs volume of 2F-T7, … and... 150grs volume of BH209, provide equal, or near equal pressures??

That is one thing the graph shows but notice how BH pressure curve lasts longer than the either T7 graph. indicating the pressure curve does not peak as fast nor does it loose pressure as fast. It is a slower burning powder, which is exactly what General Dynamics was after.

now put a 300 grain bullet in with that load and you would see significant difference in the traces.

sabotloader said:

That is one thing the graph shows but notice how BH pressure curve lasts longer than the either T7 graph. indicating the pressure curve does not peak as fast nor does it loose pressure as fast. It is a slower burning powder, which is exactly what General Dynamics was after.

now put a 300 grain bullet in with that load and you would see significant difference in the traces.

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Yes, but when comparing it to the 2f T7, those curves are very close and not really that far apart, but there's a significant difference when using pellets.

Western clams that every test they complete, they pressure test, according to the data they sent me recently. When they tested the RUM and settled on 160grs VOLUME as a maximum, the pressures they provided were with various bullet weights and charges. It appears that with just 10grs VOLUME over the charges used with the testing graph (150grs V), that they run pretty parallel. I've asked for additional conformation from Western, but a WAG is that the highest pressure reading they provided, was with the heavier bullet and another WAG is likely a 300gr. The lower pressures Western reports, could have been from the 250gr OEM bullet and maybe with the 120gr charge. As already mentioned, I've asked for more clarification.

Western's response to testing the RUM … ONLY...
"Yes we do take actual pressure readings in all of our tests. But the pressures are going to vary because of bullet weight and powder charges. We saw pressures from 23,000 psi to 28,500 psi."

Still more to ponder...….. How much significant pressure increase does a much heavier bullet make with BH209? I .. think .. this test obtained from a smokeless board was likely completed with a ..45cal barrel?

The pressure curve(s) seem to indicate it is quite difficult to achieve excess pressure using Blackhorn powder. For safety sake one should stay away from pellets.

Here's a couple more taken off the smokeless boards...….

Maybe from Blackhorn? http://blackhorn209.com/nevada/

Trouble is no one is making a true loading manual, So you don't know validity of test,Who does the Saami standards?

45-70 said:

Trouble is no one is making a true loading manual, So you don't know validity of test,Who does the Saami standards?

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As lamented, there is no governing body in the United States for black powder arms. They are non-GCA arms, not "firearms" according to the BATF, and have little or nothing in the way of standards. They cannot even agree on something so basic as what ".50 caliber" might be, for example. https://www.chuckhawks.com/no_standards.htm

It appears from a google check, there are no Saami tests or requirements for BP or BPS.

However I did find one through a quick search that Pedersoli provides for BPCR. https://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resu...li_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

I don’t use T-7, but I have in the past. It’s stunning how crushing a pellet increases pressure. I have a feeling that probably happens pretty regularly.