Do we know who????

Some of the guys are using 90 grains of FFF Swiss (not FF)with 500 plus bullets in a .45. Imagine what that load would look like on the graph ?

We are all safe as long as we do not do something stupid like double load. Powder bullet powder bullet. Even doubling your powder charge (only)when dealing with Black powder or Black powder subs would more than likely still be ok . Smokeless powder is a entirely different story.

We all just need to pay attention while loading ,have and use witness marks!

Blackhorn 209 is not a 'progressive burning smokeless powder'. This was all proven, back several years ago.

Just because a product may have a base of nitrocellulose, that does not automatically make it a "SMOKELESS POWDER". Several products are nitrocellulose based, such as film, ping pong balls, guitar picks. Does that make them "SMOKELESS POWDER" too?

Blackhorn 209 has the same burn characteristics as loose Triple Se7en FFg, as proven by the time/pressure curve traces.

Blackhorn 209 is classified as the following. What Blackhorn 209 is.

"The regulatory authorities who determine the classification of energetic materials - The Explosives Bureau, U.S. D.O.T. and Canadian Energy Research Laboratories - have all determined the classification of Blackhorn 209 to be US/UN PROPELLANT, SOLID, UN0499. Smokeless powders are classified as POWDER, SMOKELESS, UN0161."

http://blackhorn209.com/nevada/

http://www.namlhunt.com/blackhorn209-10.html

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2014/07/blackhorn-209-legalized-for-nevada-hunters/



What Blackhorn 209 is not.

http://www.namlhunt.com/blackhorn209-8.html


Nitrocellulose. Scroll down and click on uses.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose


Smokeless Powder Ping Pong Balls? Watch the videos.

https://www.chemedx.org/blog/simple-yet-dramatic-chemistry-experiment-ping-pong-balls

so what is this to prove or have to do with pressure curves

Hope that was not toward my post !I do not think Blackhorn 209 is a smokeless powder nor did I mean to imply that Blackhorn 209 is a smokeless powder.

Dougs136Schwartz said:

Hope that was not toward my post !I do not think Blackhorn 209 is a smokeless powder nor did I mean to imply that Blackhorn 209 is a smokeless powder.

Click to expand...

No Doug, I am sure that was headed my way...

BH is a Nitro based powder.

A forum member placed a call to Western powders and a request for a MSDS on BH209. produced this information.

The main component is Nitrate ester. Some additional research on explosives then produced this information, nitrate ester is a "general" or "group" term of certain explosives. This type of explosive includes Dynamite, Nitroglycerine, RDX, C4, PETN, Semtex H, Nitrocellulose and smokeless powder. The MSDS does not label it as a smokeless powder and it really isn't and could not be classified as a true smokeless because of the added ingredients (Sulphur and potassium) to allow it to be classified as a BP sub.

Click to expand...

Remove the Sulphur and potassium and you might be looking at a different matter. But really in the real world what does it matter??? General Dynamics spent the time to engineer it to meet the needed parameters to have it classified as a BP sub versus as smokeless powder - so more power to them. They stayed within the necessary rules and created a really good powder that is being used by a lot muzzleloading enthusiasts.

One other little test that really proves nothing without a chemical analysis, but you might try. I would assume many of you do have some true smokeless powder available to you - try this open a bottle of BH and take a generous smell of the powder. for me it is a really sweet smell - then open a bottle of rifle powder and repeat the test. Nitro is Nitro... A dog can smell it no matter what is labeled.

I do not have any idea nor do I really care.

I’ll have to give Busta credit he sure can find plenty of information to back up his thoughts and reasoning.

As far as Blackhorn 209 , Black or Triple 7 . They all will work fine . I like the ability to shoot Blackhorn 209 without cleaning between shots if I so desire. Sometimes Blackhorn is still more accurate with cleaning between shots. I also like the ability to clean with oil base cleaners not water base cleaners

As far as velocity. Blackhorn is a little faster but probably has the worse extreme spreads of the three. With Swiss having the best. They all will work fine just personal preference.

I guess you still missed the message? This is nothing new, and proven several years ago. I said it was Nitrocellulose based, just like film, ping pong balls and guitar picks, but that does not make any of them "smokeless powder".

That is also why you can smell what you think is nitro in the bottle, because there is nitro in the bottle. Still don't make it "smokeless powder", no matter how many times you say it, or sniff it.

It has as close to identical burn characteristics to Triple Se7en loose powder than any other Black Powder or Black Powder Substitute. Does that make Triple Se7en a 'progressive burning smokeless powder' too?

It appears..... not saying its fact...… that BH209 doesn't have the perceived pressures that some may have thought or feared.
What may be known is, that blackpowder is more dangerous than any substitute, simply by the requirements for its storage as an extreme explosive.

No BH209 in this test...….

There's that word that someone has never heard used to describe powder before.

"Energetic"

"Schuetzen Powder Energetics, Inc. is a national leader in black powder for firearms, fireworks, mining and military applications. A joint venture between Petro-Explo, Inc. and WANO Schwarzpulver GmbH, WANO provides over 330 years of black powder production at the same facility in Germany."

https://schuetzenpowder.com


Their Swiss Black Powder is just a wee bit more "energetic" than Schuetzen Black Powder is though!

Well my understanding was that BH 209 was not a smokeless powder, but did have progressive characteristics. It dose not have to be classified as a smokeless powder to have similar characteristics.

Lee, anyone that has pushed a car with one's person, knows how hard a car is to to get started, and how much easier it is to keep the car rolling after it is rolling. Bullets are the same. Design the powder so that it pushes harder after the bullet is moving than it does before the bullet is moving; this naturally keeps pressure lower. Therein lie the secret of Blackhorn powder. Blackhorn is able to give bullet higher speed than other powder, and keep pressure low, because it gets hot, later into the burn, after the bullet is already moving,............. evidently Blackhorn also contains more energy than other powders.

Looking at the burn traces shown in this thread, it is quite obvious that Blackhorn is a powder that is quite safe, because it is able to impart good speed without creating unsafe pressure. The graphs show that triple seven burns about exactly the same as Blackhorn. Black powder reaches peak pressure slower than either Triple Seven, or Blackhorn, but evidently doesn't have as much contained energy. The graphs shown Triple Seven pellets achieve peak pressure soonest into the burn. The pressure is highest for pellets, and it stands to reason, because the bullet isn't yet moving much.

This characteristic of powder to delay it's peak burn is defined as 'progressive'. To me, it seems all muzzle loading powders are 'progressive'............., pellets being the least 'progressive'.

The way I understand it is that black and the other subs are what is call a low explosive and BH demonstrates some progressive characteristics.

Do builders such as TC, CVA and Knight pressure test barrels? If so, have they ever posted results?