No Excuses Bullet Hardness Test

SteveH, If you question the T

dbowling said:

All the No Excuses Ive shot from my Whites or Knights in the last 2-3 yrs have shot excellent, have bought .54,50 and .45 No Excuse and have had no accuracy issues with any.

Click to expand...

As i stated above, they are an AWESOME looking design, i have 3 Molds/Calibers that look Nearly identical, All 3 of Mine shoot STELLAR! It’s NOT the Bullet design

dbowling said:

you might try shooting the 15 into a group at say 50 yds then shoot 15 of the others at same target and distance and see how they group together..that will probably tell you if there is much difference as long as you use same loading, powder, clean barrel etc.

Click to expand...

My Exact advice to SteveH in Bottom of Post 13

bulletbusiness said:

If I had to guess.....a few cases (30ish). It's been a couple years ago since we got that bad shipment of lead. If anyone thinks they may have gotten some-let me know via PM and I'll make it right with them.

Click to expand...

AWESOME to see you stand behind your Product!!

In my experience, Dave has always stood behind his product.
Anybody who would ship you bullets with the invoice enclosed for you to mail him payment is not worried about his business.

Dave has always done that and like Lew stated stands behind his product! I believe Dave trust us ML shooters as we are a unique breed of sportsman!

Well, I just got the itch to try Saboted Bullets one more time and just ordered the 250gr from Dave. To my surprise, I guess Dave got burnt with people not paying so now you must use your credit card in placing orders. Not a problem, just feel bad that a guy like Dave has to change and we have a few bad apples in the ML world.

It seems to be getting that way with everything anymore, always someone taking advantage of someones trust.
Ed I shot a few of the sabot bullets back a couple months ago and they seem like they are going to shoot, only shot 3 I think cant even remember the load now.

edmehlig said:

Well, I just got the itch to try Saboted Bullets one more time and just ordered the 250gr from Dave. To my surprise, I guess Dave got burnt with people not paying so now you must use your credit card in placing orders. Not a problem, just feel bad that a guy like Dave has to change and we have a few bad apples in the ML world.

Click to expand...

SteveH said:

I just discovered a cheap but apparently accurate way to test lead hardness, curious is anyone has tried it.



In the vid, I am referring to the guy's use of lead sketching pencils of varying hardness. These can be purchased at any craft or stationary store for less than $10. Basically you pick up a set of sketching pencils and see if you can scratch the lead with them. Start wit a "6B" pencil, a soft one that matches up with pure lead. If you can't scratch the surface, move up to the next pencil on the hardness scale. When you can scratch the lead with the pencil, match it on the chart for corresponding hardness and you then apparently have a pretty good idea of the lead purity.View attachment 4324

Click to expand...

SteveH
I did purchase the Staedtler pencil set and have been using this system for the past few years. Like the guy in the YouTube vid, I agree that this is an accurate and low budget way to measure lead hardness.
To verify the results, I tested metal from three sources: 1.) pure lead, hardball, and monotype purchased from RotoMetals, 2.) scrap lead scrounged from various sources, and 3.) an Ebay source claimed to be pure lead plus 1% tin to improve castability. The scrounged lead was taken to my local scrap metal dealer where the various batches were shot with an ex ray gun and exact percentages given like % lead, % antimony, % tin, etc. I have the exact same chart as the guy in the vid and in all cases, the pencil test proved to be spot on.
A few extra thoughts, however:
- You can buy cheaper brands of sketching pencils and save a couple bucks, but stick with the high quality Staedtlers.
- Rather than sharpen the lead to a point, you want to have a flat bottom. Take a sharp utility knife and remove about 3/16" of wood, leaving a stub of lead sticking out. Don't worry about breakage, as the lead is very strong. Get a piece of 400 grit Wet or Dry sand paper, and holding the pencil vertically, sand the end of the lead to a nice flat face with square edges. If you're concerned that the pencils may not last long, well, no more than I use mine, they're going to outlast my lifetime. Then, hold the pencil against the lead/alloy at about a 45 degree angle and push forward with just a little downward pressure. It's actually easier to do than it sounds, and just takes a little practice to get the hang of it. You're looking for the point at which the pencil either gouges the metal or rides across the top of it.
- One of the advantages to this system is that you can test any size of metal, not just a bullet. You just need a small and relatively smooth spot on which to push your pencils.
- Recently on this forum in other threads, mention has been made about how even small increases in hardness can affect accuracy, point of impact, and loading difficulty with muzzleloading bullets. Using the pencil test, I unfortunately was not able to tell a difference between certified pure lead and the lead-plus-1%-tin (with small amounts of other non-pure lead mixed in) that I had been using for casting my bullets. The softest lead pencil leaves a similar gouge mark in both metals. I have no idea if genuine hardness testing tools can detect such small variances. At my last casting session, I switched over to pure lead, but I'm still in the testing phase to see if it affects my loading/shooting.
In summary, I heartily endorse the pencil testing systsem.

SteveH bullets look as though they have sat around for awhile....lube starting to dry out and discolor as well as substantial oxidation. I'd let em collect dust too if they shot like crap. Send me a PM with your address and I'll get you a fresh box out there to tinker with.

That is a generous, can't do more than that.

Got this out of a 8pt buck I shot a few years ago. Started at 464grs and now it's 442.9grs. Shot him in the chest so I think the only bones it hit was a rib. It's pure lead.

You're right Ed, operated on the "order now-pay later" plan for more than 20 years. Over the past year it had gotten so bad that I was spending upwards of 8-10 hours a week trying to get paid on orders that were sometimes more than a year old. Eventually wrote-off a bunch. Just too time consuming to "dog" the few. I still allow folks to call and order over the phone if they're just not interested in doing the CC thing. Some folks are still just a little reluctant to trust the web. Most of those folks are past customers that I know will pay. Times are changin', dang it!

bulletbusiness said:

You're right Ed, operated on the "order now-pay later" plan for more than 20 years. Over the past year it had gotten so bad that I was spending upwards of 8-10 hours a week trying to get paid on orders that were sometimes more than a year old. Eventually wrote-off a bunch. Just too time consuming to "dog" the few. I still allow folks to call and order over the phone if they're just not interested in doing the CC thing. Some folks are still just a little reluctant to trust the web. Most of those folks are past customers that I know will pay. Times are changin', dang it!

Click to expand...

That’s a Shame! I definitely don’t blame you for changing!

As a Bullet Caster myself, I don’t know how anyone can make any money to speak of Casting Bullets? Unless you got a SUPER GOOD Deal on your Lead/Alloy. I have been asked by several folks if I would consider selling Bullets from My Custom Cut Molds? My answer is always NO, I buy my “Stamped Certified” Lead/Alloy from Buffalo Arms (they show cheaper than Rotometals most of the Time) it Costs me right on 50 Dollars to fill my Little 20 pound Lead Pot, 99% of the Bullets i Cast start at 400 Grains and Go North from there, It doesn’t take long to EAT UP a 20 Pound Pot of Lead/Alloy. Then you take in the Cost of Shipping, 8 bucks for a Small Flat Rate Box these days. My Bullets would end up Costing substantially more than you would pay for a Box of Hornady Great Plains, Maxi Balls, Etc. (I am Confident my stuff would be FAR Superior in Design, and Quality, But their are a LOT of Tight Wads in this Hobby ) I gave up on the idea of Casting for Profit LONG LONG ago

Bullshop Dan and i had a Conversation Through Email about Lead Hardness, Long Story Short i knew for a Fact he was using something besides Pure Lead, Just what it was I didn’t know? My Old Stainless Green Mountain LRH Barrel was the Best Lead Hardness tester there ever was , it would NOT shoot Pure Soft lead worth a Darn, You had to harden the Lead Pot up just a Bit, By Doing so That Ole Stainless Barrel would come to life!! I asked Bullshop Dan where he Got his Lead? the Composition? And Hardness? Dan told me that he did Not own a Lead Hardness tester, And that he got his Lead from local Plumbers, He Said it was Pure lead, And that He also kept the Solder Joints (He didn’t think the Solder Joints would effect the Hardness? I can tell you now that IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES!!) The Solder Joints in his Mixture is PRECISELY why my Old Stainless Barrel Shot his Bullets so well! Now, if a guy were to order a Box of Bullshop Bullets now, And maybe another Box 6 Months, or a year Down the Rd, Would they be of Identical Hardness? My Bet is NO, They would VERY likely be slightly Different, And VERY possibly shoot slightly different? One should ALWAYS check accuracy before trusting to take on a Hunt! As i stated throughout this Thread, Some Rifles are MUCH more forgiving than others, But stil Test a Group from each Box to make Darn sure!

The Only Way i can see that a Guy could actually make a Profit Casting, and Selling Bullets, is if the Source of Lead/Alloy was Free, or Darn Cheap

If you are going to cast Bullets for a living, you definitely need a Magna Caster or the like. But you have to sell a lot of bullets to recoup your expenses. My concern with the Magna Caster is how consistent the weight of the Bullets will be???

It surprises me that Bullshop wouldn't have a hardness tester. I've got three now, a cabin tree, an LBT and a Lee and check every batch of bullets I cast (especially after the last fiasco from my lead supplier-to remain unnamed). It's not an exact science but you can tell when someone has "poisoned" the well. As for making money casting.....It's such a slim margin that I have convinced myself it's just a hobby that keeps me off the streets at night and in the mountains during the fall.

As for making money casting.....It's such a slim margin that I have convinced myself it's just a hobby that keeps me off the streets at night and in the mountains during the fall.

Agree 100% Dave. But let’s not forget the satisfaction of people using your bullets and having great results not only on game but also on targets as well. I know it does for me.

Been gone fishin or I would have chimed in sooner. What brought me to sending bullets to IdahoLewis for testing was buying a White rifle that only NE seemed to make bullets for. After seeing some of Ron's tests on here and some hinting around I decided to have it done and Lewis was nice enough to do it for me. At that time I was good and had made my decision, then in one of the posts SteveH mentioned he provided bullets for the 2015 test and I thought a comparison would be nice. So I asked Steve to send some bullets in and the results were eye opening. I want to thank Lewis for the testing and what I believe was a great write up and explanation on this. I also want to thank Dave for his explanation and joining in this conversation. I learned a lot through this about bullet casting and hope it was helpful to others as well.