Shoulder Shot for Elk?

Two years ago ( no tag last year ) I shot a Bull with a perfect shot placement. My range was 15 yards so this is not boasting. Despite the placement, he ran 150-200 yards. He took off like a race horse after the MZ Blast. I found no blood whatsoever. We found him in a grid search, dead as doorknob and fortunately in a small clearing.

I may not be as fortunate next time, what if he had piled up in a thicket, what if it wasn't a double lunger?

I have a friend who claims " His Buddies " purposely shoot them in the shoulder to anchor them in the spot. I'm wondering if this is the way to go? I'll be shooting a 495 NoExcuse with 75 grains of T7.

Any experience from the crowd on this?

Thanks,

LB

Bull elk are hard to "anchor"! I've shot them in the shoulder with 430-440 grain lead conicals over 80 VOLUMETRIC grains of Triple Sev7en and Blackhorn 209. They still traveled up to 60 yards.

I've also witnessed one shot with a 295 grain PowerBelt over 110 Volumetric grains Pyrodex that shook it off like a bee sting. He traveled around the mountain and started calling his cows back in about 3/4 of a mile away. We were able to track him that far with superficial blood and hard tracking. Looked for him the rest of that day and all the next day to no avail. The guy was sick about it and rightly so.

That's why you don't bring your Whitetail load to the dark timber for truly big game like elk. You either go big, or go home with no bone. Don't even think about shooting a pissed off called in bull elk in the shoulder with and hollow point/hollow based bullets like the Great Planes or Buffalo Bullets.

With that said, your 495 grain No Excuses should leave you with, No Excuses. As long as you can get the bullet in the boiler room. If you call bull elk in, they usually angle in to you, and that shoulder knuckle is always in play, and something to be mindful of. I try to avoid it whenever possible, but have the added insurance of a solid lead flat meplat conical with lead instead of air in the ass end as well.

So, no to the shoulder shot. Any thoughts on a front on shot? Right in the throat or along one of the shoulder seams?

I suppose I could go up on powder some but it already gives the MK plenty of kick. Not sure 85 vs 75 grains will make that much difference.

LarryBud said:

So, no to the shoulder shot. Any thoughts on a front on shot? Right in the throat or along one of the shoulder seams?

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I really do try to avoid a direct shoulder shot. I actually prefer to slightly higher over and slightly behind the shoulder and into the upper 1/3rd of the chest cavity.



This shot area has worked very well for me. The organ destruction and the effects of the hydrostatic pressures - often - create enough trauma and shock to over-ride the animals flight response.

But, as Busta has indicated and as I will add if you are taking on a mature bull in the rut a lot of the trauma and shock can be overridden by state of mind the animals brain is in - at time s it seems that they do not feel a thing!

I suppose I could go up on powder some but it already gives the MK plenty of kick. Not sure 85 vs 75 grains will make that much difference.

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Going up in powder could/might be an option but at that point you do or should be concerned about leading in the barrel.

Here in Idaho we are requires to shoot a full bore lead conical during ML season. I made the choice several years ago to go the Bull Shop .503x460MTNex bullet and it has worked extremely well for me. Dan actually makes a 400 grain that I am positive would work well - but at this point I am sticking with the 460. Also know that Dan can size the bullet to your choice to fir your bore.

I have shot a couple of cows with a frontal chest shot, again trying to place the bullet in the same general area as the broadside shot.

Thanks Sabotloader. Where we hunt,( thick timber, calling them in ) getting one to pose nicely for a broadside shot is a challenge. Last year, we hunted the same are during archery. Lot's of action but they are elusive through the trees.

I like you picture. I'll try to borrow it if you don't mind.

LarryBud said:

Thanks Sabotloader. Where we hunt,( thick timber, calling them in ) getting one to pose nicely for a broadside shot is a challenge. Last year, we hunted the same are during archery. Lot's of action but they are elusive through the trees.

I like you picture. I'll try to borrow it if you don't mind.

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Help yourself to the pic - I got it off the web and added the cross-hairs.

Your country sounds much like N. Idaho - lots of timber and not really a lot of flat land. Since I want to use a ML my season is in December so not much opportunity to call anything. It is more or less and 'ambush' type of hunt.

LarryBud said:

Two years ago ( no tag last year ) I shot a Bull with a perfect shot placement. My range was 15 yards so this is not boasting. Despite the placement, he ran 150-200 yards. He took off like a race horse after the MZ Blast. I found no blood whatsoever. We found him in a grid search, dead as doorknob and fortunately in a small clearing.

I may not be as fortunate next time, what if he had piled up in a thicket, what if it wasn't a double lunger?

I have a friend who claims " His Buddies " purposely shoot them in the shoulder to anchor them in the spot. I'm wondering if this is the way to go? I'll be shooting a 495 NoExcuse with 75 grains of T7.

Any experience from the crowd on this?

Thanks,

LB

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Curious what you shot him with, that he ran that far with perfect shot placement.
I personally don't purposely go for the shoulder, like sabotloader indicated, just behind the shoulder is preferable. But, unless they are posing perfectly broadside, one shoulder, or the other can get hit with a slightly quartering shot. With 495 grains of lead, I don't think that will be a problem.
And, I've seen game run pretty well with a bullet through one shoulder. Just not real far, as the bullet has also gone through lungs.

FredB said:

Curious what you shot him with, that he ran that far with perfect shot placement.
I personally don't purposely go for the shoulder, like sabotloader indicated, just behind the shoulder is preferable. But, unless they are posing perfectly broadside, one shoulder, or the other can get hit with a slightly quartering shot. With 495 grains of lead, I don't think that will be a problem.
And, I've seen game run pretty well with a bullet through one shoulder. Just not real far, as the bullet has also gone through lungs.

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My last ( and only ) Elk was shot with a 300 Grain Thor/ 100 grains of BH 209. I did get a broadside shot and my placement was very close to the cross hairs on Sabotloaders picture. Perhaps, a few inched lower. I had two holes.

I remember him taking off like they just opened the gates at the Kentucky Derby. We waited 45 minutes. The ground was gravel and there had been a lot of traffic. I couldn't track him after a few yards and I never found a drop of blood. Just an Elk piled up. This story had a happy ending. The Mrs. even let me put the 6 x 6 Euro Mount over the fire place.

However, I do remember the angst as the search ensued. I don't want to go through that again if it can be avoided.

I have shot cow elk in the heart and had them run 100 yards. My 1st ML cow I hit right on the point of the shoulder with a pure lead bullet. It cracked the ball joint, spit in half, and luckily went through neck and lungs. She still ran 80 yards. Notice in th picture how the lung goes higher in the back? My buddy shot one in the spine, just above the back of the lungs and the cow dropped in her tracks and sprayed blood in a perfect 1/2 circle. I shoot 405 gr. .458 jacketed rifle bullets with 115 gr. 777. I've shot 4 cows with this load (out to 220 yards), and 3 dropped in their tracks, and the other ran 40 yards. I aim higher and further back than I used to. l used a hardcast bullet last fall, and it went in the front left shoulder and out the right rear ham. It wasn't a fast kill, she ran 200 yards. Unfortunately, Remington isn't selling the componets for their 405 gr. .458 anymore, so I'm running out of bullets.

I have shot several Elk with a 460 Bullshop, Now I use 115 Gr. of T7. Thats where my groups start to open up. This is in a White. I would not have a problem with a Shoulder shot if thats all that is available

Redclub said:

I have shot several Elk with a 460 Bullshop, Now I use 115 Gr. of T7. Thats where my groups start to open up. This is in a White. I would not have a problem with a Shoulder shot if thats all that is available

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That's a stout load for sure. I'll try to work the load up some.

Elk can be difficult to put down even with proper bullet placement. If you think about how much ground an elk can cover in 30 seconds it can make recovery of an animal anything but certain. Especially with little or no blood trail. My personal approach is to take only those shots that give me both lungs; almost like I was using archery tackle. I lost an elk that only had one lung taken out (archery season) and that is not a feeling I ever want to experience again. The warm temperatures we typically have in Colorado during September means spoiled or seriously degraded quality of meat if that animal lays on the ground for too long before being cared for. It seems to me the overall best chance for a quick death is a large hole through both lungs. That target also happens to be quite large and thus margin for error is increased. I have personally witnessed 3 bulls with double lung hits resulting from heavy lead and the furthest one went after the shot was less than 100 yards. Good luck on your hunt.

Elk, like any other living, breathing, organism, are all individuals. Some are tougher than others. "Perfect shot placement" is an opinion (IMO). I have shot 6 bulls and a cow with my ML's. 100 grains Pyro Selct RS, 460 gn No Excuses on the 6 bulls. Savage ML-2 on the cow, 250 grain TC EZ glide, 43 gns 5744. 175 yard shot. She ran 40 yards, spraying blood out both sides. I hit her high, through both lungs, about 5" under the top of the back bone. She drowned in her own blood quickly.
One bull I shot at 120 yards right at last light. An older 6x6. He walked about twenty yards and laid down. I gathered up all my stuff and hiked down to where he was standing when I shot, using my flashlight I looked around to see what kind of blood I had. I didn't see any. Shined my light up to where he laid down and he was lying there looking at me. I couldn't shoot again because it was too dark at this point.
I ran down off the mountain to get my brother in law to come help me take care of him, the shot felt good and I had no doubts he would be expired and lying right where he was, by the time I got back up there. 1-1/2 hours later we get back up to where he was. I shined the flashlight up,to where he was last, and he was still there, head up, looking right at us. We backed out and went up the next morning. Still in the same place, but dead. Cleaned him out and the tops of both lungs were obliterated. Slug just under the hide on the off side.
One 6x6 in that same area, I shot at about the same distance, same load (the same load I've shot out of that White since I bought it) dropped like he'd been hit over the head with a car and was stone dead when I got up to him, about three minutes later. I hit him behind the shoulder, mid height, once again recovering the slug under the off side of the hide. There was a sow with a cub in that area, and I was ringing the dinner bell with all that fresh blood. So, I skinned him and quartered him, and got him down to the truck. I never did clean him out and inspect the internal damage.
The 6x6 in my profile pic, I hit high and pretty far back, still in the lungs, but not by much. He was at 100 yards and ran about 200 leaving almost no blood, nosebleed amounts at best. My good friend (who guides for Mossback) filmed it all and put it on YouTube. When we watched the shot back, I didn't think there was any way we were going to find that bull. Google "Stacey Porter 2010 muzzleloader" and it should pull it up, if your interested to see it. He also had a muzzy broad head through his left shoulder bone and just the point made it through into his lung cavity. The archery hunt had ended a couple of weeks earlier. When we cut that front shoulder off there was a hole all the way through it and the broad head was just into the muscle of the rib cage. Another couple of pounds of draw weight and he'd have been a goner.
One, a 4x5 raghorn, I shot at about 50 yards, he started to walk away slowly, I was able to reload and get a second shot that put him down. Both were in the rib cage and once again I recovered one of the two slugs under the hide on the off side.
One 5x6 I shot at about 15 yards, and he went about 75 yards before going down. He was facing head on and I hit him dead center, just under the neck. Didn't dig through the entrails looking for that slug, but it missed the heart and only got one lung, and it didn't pass through.
One was also at 100 yards, clean pass, right behind the shoulder. Ran about thirty yards, stopped, spun in a circle and went down. He was still alive when I got to him, but not going anywhere. I shot him again just to hasten the end.
Every shot that I have made with my ML has been "Perfect shot placement" because I recovered them.
The one shot I have taken that I really thought was a perfect shot, under the conditions that I had, was with a bow. 10 yards front facing, hit him just left of center, and when he whirled and ran off, I could just see my fletchings sticking out of the front. He bled more than any animal I have ever seen, at about 400 yards, I lost the blood and never recovered him. Still sick over that one. I keep having doubts as to whether or not I should have let that arrow fly. In hindsight no, I shouldn't have, because it resulted in an un-recovered kill. At the time, I was congratulating myself on a perfect shot, and just knew he was only going to go 40 or 50 yards and be done. Wrong.
So you see, IMO "Perfect Shot Placement" is going to vary on every animal and in every situation. The "perfect shot" results in a recovered animal, and we can only hope that it also results in a short blood trail. I guess the most perfect shot I've ever seen was the kid who shoots a nice bull with his bow. It takes maybe one or two steps, spewing blood like a geyser, and drops after about five seconds.

Stan, I enjoyed the video, and your post.

there is a difference between shoulder and high shoulder. Should and you're taking out lungs, high shoulder and you're taking their spine.

Two months ago: 300gr PT Gold, 110 grains of BH209 @ 100yds broadside
Went in behind the shoulder and upper leg bone to take off the vessels at the top of the heart and both lungs. Minimal meat loss. This is standard shot placement for me as you generally only lose a little rib meat and is always quickly fatal.
This guy still went 50yds.

For a broad side I do really prefer to go in right behind the shoulder

A shot that goes through the center of the chest cavity from any angle will usually produce a quick kill on deer or elk.
Any hole in the lungs is normally devastating due to both blood loss, and loss of lung function.

No animal can go very far without oxygen in the blood.

Smokeless Muzzleloader: 275 grain Parker BE at 3,000 fps Effect on Deer - YouTube

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Just one thing to say on this. I have hunted elk and deer for over 60 years with archery, centerfire and muzzleloaders. Never, ever, shoot either species front on. I have taken that shot on brown bear when there was no choice, but I have witnessed and know of many tales of woe with unbelievably close straight on, frontal shots.