CVA Paramount Update

They are likely relying on the plug to center the 209 primer in the bolt face. A 209 is smaller OD than a 22 Hornet rim. Very interested in how much of the 209 primer is IN the primer pocket.

When set up like this a 209 is extremely tough and virtually blowby free.


Notice how the rim of the 209 is recessed into and fully supported in the NULA bolt face and breach plug. There is no gap at all when its ready to fire in the action


Pretty hard for a 209 to bulge when it surrounded by steel and has no place it can go.

When I spoke to CVA about the new spring I asked them about the 209 plug and if they had done testing with it. This was their response - The 209 makes for less consistent ignition and adds more inconsistency to the muzzle velocity. That is why we went to the Variflames.

And yet the vast majority of people in the winners circle at Friendship use 209s even when loads over 120grV were allowed. If VariFlame was "all that" then you would see it dominate Friendship and other major competitions. Rifle primers certainly have advantages...just not so much in VariFlame modules.

Brad7348 said:

When I spoke to CVA about the new spring I asked them about the 209 plug and if they had done testing with it. This was their response - The 209 makes for less consistent ignition and adds more inconsistency to the muzzle velocity. That is why we went to the Variflames.

Click to expand...

That is because they are shooting a undersized bullet. PowerBelt ELR.

Put a properly sized land rider bullet or snug fitting saboted bullet in the bore, and most if not all of that inconsistency goes away.

My guess is they saw more variation with the 209 because it leaks like a sieve the way they set up their plugs.

The plunger portion of the bolt head stops short of the center column firing pin housing. So it will just push on primer rim when seating.

Exactly what I was thinking. Only the bolt face "ring" will touch the primer at all and likely only the rim.

Busta said:

That is because they are shooting a undersized bullet. PowerBelt ELR.

Put a properly sized land rider bullet or snug fitting saboted bullet in the bore, and most if not all of that inconsistency goes away.

Click to expand...

This is good to know. I may end up investing in a sizer in the near future so I can shoot Parkers and/or Pittmans. The good news is there are several improvement options already in the works and should all be available and tested by multiple people soon. I like where it is going.

lwh723 said:

My guess is they saw more variation with the 209 because it leaks like a sieve the way they set up their plugs.

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That's entirely possible, not unlike my Optima Pistol Breech Plugs. Both of the CVA Plugs, OEM plug and Blackhorn plug have a larger 0.250" diameter pocket. The Western Powders Breech Plug primer pocket is 0.248" diameter.




The cure for that is to get some larger 0.245"-0.246" diameter European 209 Primers like the Nobel Sport. They are also as long or longer than the Winchester W209 @ 0.300"+. Then adjust the headspace for a 0.003" crush, via the firing pin bushing.




Then you'll get blowback free ignition, and clean breech plugs after a full range session.




And great groups like these.




Of course, I don't have a rifle, bolt, and breech plug in from of me like you guys, but I did drive clear to Indy to look at 4 of them back in April. I can only go from memory and a few pics, and no look at the optional 209 primer breech plug.






Before we jump to conclusions, we might just want to wait and see what they have come up with for the Paramount 209 Primer Breech Plug? As far as I know, nobody but CVA has even seen one as of now, but that will change as soon as some of these guys get theirs.

If any of that don't work, the o-ring is always an option, and has never let me down. A bushing inside the bolt body in place or in conjunction with a spring, to set the headspace. Nobody hates blowback more than me, and this ain't my first Rodeo!

Looks like there will be a few other options as well, from mwwoodman and ASG so far. There will be more, I'm sure.

Yeah at first I was thinking I could live with a little leaking as long as the accuracy didn't suffer. Just need a bit more cleaning on the primer adapters. But then I realized the blow back was leaving black soot on my $1000 rifle scope. Ummmm. Yeah I want to fix that. It was all over the bottom of the scope body and more annoying...the windage turret.

Does anyone have a link to the Paramount 209 breech plug for sale, or an actual picture of it? CVA Site?

This is the one at Muzzle-Loaders.com, in stock for $20, but no picture???

• 

Be the first review

Fits .45 caliber CVA Paramount™ muzzleloaders
Designed for use with 209 shot shell primers
$20.00
Availability: In Stock



FAST SHIPPING. BEST PRICES.

• Description
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The CVA® Paramount Breech Plug is specifically designed for use with 209 shot shell primers. Nothing affects the performance of your muzzleloader more than a clean breech plug for consistent ignition and better overall accuracy.

This CVA™ replacement breech plug, is designed to work with all CVA Paramount® muzzleloader rifles. This plug is optimal for whatever type of propellant you choose to use, either loose or pelletized. The CVA™ Paramount 209 Breech Plug allows the flash-hole to remain debris-free after repeated shots with fine, loose powder propellants. You no longer need to continually clean out the flash hole after each shot.


https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/cva-paramount-breech-plug-209-primer-ac1719.html

Brad7348 said:

Yeah at first I was thinking I could live with a little leaking as long as the accuracy didn't suffer. Just need a bit more cleaning on the primer adapters. But then I realized the blow back was leaving black soot on my $1000 rifle scope. Ummmm. Yeah I want to fix that. It was all over the bottom of the scope body and more annoying...the windage turret.

Click to expand...

Have you had a chance to try the new bolt spring yet? CVA sent out a few hundred Paramounts with the wrong spring. Mine came with the correct one and have a friend who has the correct one as well. Mine has absolutely no leaking around the variflame. The modules are all clean after 4 or 5 shots with each one. The only residue I had was in the breech area. Teflon tape around the breech plug fixed that. He states his is not leaking as well. Just curious if we just got lucky and have a good seal or if it is just a matter of the wrong spring. Have several people wanting to buy one but or waiting for more answers. I will buy Luke’s system to try it and compare but not everyone is able to do that.

Haven't been out to the range with the new spring yet but hope to get out there this weekend. I'll report back.

Went ahead and ordered a CVA 209 plug just for grins. I will send pics when it comes in.

The 209 primer is smaller in circumference and the variflame adapter in comparison fits tight with very little wiggle room as far as the bolt face goes, but the 209 primer still spans the hole of the bolt face by a pretty big margin. On another note I don't know if its me shooting triple 7 through this thing or what but keep all the metal pieces that aren't the barrel protected with whatever lube offers great corrosion control. The QD connects on the stock the bolt release button the cheek riser knob, trigger and the bolt itself are really susceptible to rusting. Keep them covered with something that doesn't run away, and yes I clean this thing every time I shoot it. Hoping my Blackhorn 209 order gets here soon. I have the new spring and many of my variflames leak (6 of 10). Once the 209 plug gets here I'll test it. Probably next weekend as they just shipped it today.

My 209 plug shipped quick. Its on the way already. I am thinking about making a shim to replace the spring to slightly crush the rim of a 209 to see how it seals/shoots. What would be a good material to try to use for the shim? I would assume a hard plastic shim would be sufficient or should it be metal?

The 209 breech plug arrived today. It seems exactly the same relationship wise as the variflame. Fits pretty loose on the sides, so no sealing there. The bottom of the primer is where it would have to seal exactly like the variflame. I'll give it a try tomorrow and report my experience.

antman said:

View attachment 5213 The 209 breech plug arrived today. It seems exactly the same relationship wise as the variflame. Fits pretty loose on the sides, so no sealing there. The bottom of the primer is where it would have to seal exactly like the variflame. I'll give it a try tomorrow and report my experience.

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting that breech plug. Is that a rear sealing plug, or does it make contact on the front?


You need some of these primers! The larger 0.245"-0.246" diameter European 209 Primers like the Nobel Sport. They are also as long or longer than the Winchester W209 @ 0.300"+. Then adjust the headspace for a 0.003" crush, via a bushing behind the bolt face in the bolt body.




Or, an o-ring!

Bushing may have to be machined. It will need to be the same circumference as the spring. I tried shimming it with washers I had on hand and it didn't work as the bolt end that screws in catches the washers and will not let the bolt face screw all the way in.

I cut an O-ring in 1/2, it was too thick to get the bolt to engage, I will try that if/when it blows by.

Getting special primers powder etc. Is rough in Hawaii.

I'm going to the range tomorrow and will try the 209 primers with just the improved spring from CVA (its all I have to play with until a better solution comes along.)

Not sure where the breech seals but thats definitely working - no blowby on the breech itself. Its exactly the same design as the variflame plug just a smaller primer hole to accept the 209. They should have made it even smaller for a tighter fit to seal.

Ran into this today, looking through CVA's new site. Don't agree with everything in there especially the piss poor way they did the volume charges. That's what happens when you let kids that grew up shooting pellets, demonstrate how to measure volume charges.