Are we going backwards?

Modern Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

DaveyKBC

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
14
Reaction score
8
I was drawn to ML after seeing a Traditions Kentucky Long Rifle. You know lead ball, cotton patch, powder & a percussion cap, but I saw a modern CVA Accura MR ML & really liked the look of it, but here’s where I have a problem. It appears that with more modern ML’s we have created more problems.

For example: This Breech plug will only work with pellets; For powder one needs a different breech plug. These sabots will or will not work, crush ribs are good, crush ribs are bad, BUT sabots are dirty & cause serious fouling (depending who one listens to) These primers will ignite this powder, but not this one. These primers need modifications to the primer pocket for them to work properly whereas these ones don’t. This powder is very dirty It seems as we have moved forward we’ve made things a LOT more complicated.

ML supplies can be difficult to find around here. The other day I bought some Federal Premium Primers intended for Muzzle Loading (It says so on the box) but I've since been told that “they won’t ignite BH209”. As a complete newb to ML am now just totally confused.

And what’s with these powder measurements? Do we use volume or weight? Volumetric measurements are Lires, mL, cc, cu.in etc. Weight is grams, pounds, grains, etc.
I’ve just looked at a BH209 Load Data sheet & I see “Volume Units” & Grains. What are these “magic” volume units? Grains & Grams etc I understand, they are quantifiable, defined units of weight. Volume Units just seem to be so vague & it appears that we need a “magic measure” because the volume unit doesn’t appear to conform to any standard volumetric (Imperial or Metric) unit.
The BH209 chart indicates that 80 Vol. Units are equivalent to 56 Grains. (of BH209) I very much suspect that this is all tied up with the density of whatever powder one is using & that another manufacturer’s 56 Grains may well contain more or Less “Volumetric Units”. Or am I wrong?

& Now... My Brain hurts!
 
I feel your pain. Sometimes there is too much info available. Info Overload. You make a good point about moving backwards, but we have come forward a long distance too. There are so many more choices now than just 10-20 years ago. More powders, more bullets, more sabots, more ignition systems, more barrels. More access to custom builders. You are just playing a little catch-up is all. Lots of opinions and knowledge on here to help you sort thru it all. Ask and it shall be made known to you. And welcome to the club.
 
It’s like most things, it can be as simple or as complicated as you want it. You can still get 3F black, some patch material and a ball mold and shoot a flinter to your hearts content or you can go to the other end of the spectrum. I like having choices and I enjoy shooting them all.
 
I was drawn to ML after seeing a Traditions Kentucky Long Rifle. You know lead ball, cotton patch, powder & a percussion cap, but I saw a modern CVA Accura MR ML & really liked the look of it, but here’s where I have a problem. It appears that with more modern ML’s we have created more problems.
You forgot smokeless muzzleloaders.... come on, you jump from 1850 or so technology to 2019. Nearly 170 years. A lot of progress/development has happened, especially in the past thirty years or so. Then act surprised things have changed. It is your job to understand things. The world isn’t going to stop so you can get off. You could complain about automobiles the same way. Or any other product or technology. Nothing wrong with flintlocks. Or percussion caps. You have to know and understand the technology you are using. Ask my grandmother about the gadgets and technology on her new car and she will tell you we are going backwards....
 
Not sure where you are getting some of this info but the OEM CVA plug works fine with any powder but BH209.

Not all caps and nipples fit the same and some caps are hotter than others. How is that any different than 209 primer fitment and energy?

Different sabots are no more complicated than a thicker or thinner patch/ball combination.

No need to be confused about BH209. All the info you need about it is on Westerns website. Says right there not to use ML primers. They recommend mag primers just to be safe.

Not all real black weighs the same either. Does that make your head hurt too?
 
Thanks Guys. I guess I hoped that my comments would perhaps garner some constructive advice & comments.....

BTW it was CVA among others who advised that a BH209 Breech Plug was needed to use ANY loose powder.
 
Triple7 pellets and powder for example are the same chemical composition. Same exact stuff but the powder has far more surface area than a pellet. There is no reason the OEM plug wont ignite either just as easily and Triple7 is harder to ignite than Pyrodex or real black. WhiteHots are at least as hard to ignite as T7 pellets. BH209 is harder yet but its a nitro based propellant and has many of the advantages of a nitro propellant too. It is however still a little corrosive.

You can go as "old school" as you like. Get some real black and conicals. Have at it. You will hammer deer all day. Gun will always go boom with any primer. I shoot them too sometimes. They work great.
 
The "ML" specific 209 primers are a cooler primer designed to minimize the Crud Ring that develops when shooting subs like Pyrodex and 777.
Think of the Sabot as just a replacement for the Patch used with Roundball. Sometimes you need a thicker patch with a certain size round ball and the same applies for sabots with bullets. Bore sizes on rifles vary quite a bit so you need a different sabot sometimes.
 
Thanks Guys. I guess I hoped that my comments would perhaps garner some constructive advice & comments.....

BTW it was CVA among others who advised that a BH209 Breech Plug was needed to use ANY loose powder.
You can shoot real black in that MR. And it will light just fine off of any 209 primer. If you go into Walmart or Dunhams or Cabelas or Gander or most sports stores you will find similar selections of bullets. Grab anything in the 250 grain range and I am willing to bet it will shoot great from that gun. Buy whatever powder they have the most of (probly 777) and start shooting what they recommend. ex: 90 grains by volume of 777 2f. See how that does. Bet it surprises you just how well it will shoot whatever you decide to load. Then you can start tuning you loads.
 
I've been down this path a couple times. I don't think we're going backwards. Quite the contrary. But with progress comes a new learning curve and more details to sort through. The beauty of muzzleloaders, or any firearms for that matter, is that you can go back to the beginning, follow the progression as far as you like and stop there. There will be benefits and shortcomings with whatever you choose and like all things you have to take the good with the bad.

The other part of this is that once you get it figured out you can settle into something and get comfortable. For me, I love muzzleloaders and that's all I hunt with and really shoot anymore. I love the smoke, the smells, and the process that goes with shooting one. At the same time I have three kids, a full time job, and a farm to take care of. Doesn't matter how much I love to shoot, time is always at a premium. Shooting a muzzleloader means cleaning it right after for me. That means I need a solid two hour block at a minimum and I just can't always make that happen. So I can quit shooting or shoot a lot less. Or I could shoot a smokeless muzzleloader. That's what I chose. This allows me to shoot more frequently since I don't have to clean it right after. Sure, I lose a lot of the things that I like about shooting BP subs. I can't throw a volume charge at the bench. I don't get the giant clouds of smoke or the smell of sulpher. I have to be a little more careful with bullet to bore fit and what have you. But I can go out and take a few shots when I have time then put the gun away and go on about my day. It works out. Someday when time allows I hope to go back to something different but for now this works for me and I'm happy.

Point is find something you like, learn the quirks that go with it, and shoot it. And when you decide you want to try something else then do that and start over. While a few traditionalists will disagree, there's no wrong answer to what the right muzzleloader is. You just have to accept the good with the bad.
 
Gentlemen! My Bad! I probably titled my thread incorrectly. I wasn't trying to be a smart a$$ & Obviously we're not "going backwards" but for someone new to ML the information available is overwhelming & in some cases it can appear to be contradictory. Also as I've said finding supplies up here isn't quite as simple as in the US we just don't have the choice. My local Cabelas store had just two makes of primers & three choices for bullets for ML. (a 250gn or 300gn Hornady+Sabot & one Powerbelt). Walmart & other big box stores here stock very few if any shooting supplies at all.
Anyway, a BIG thank you to those who have tried to supply meaningful & helpful advice :)
 
Last edited:
I've been down this path a couple times. I don't think we're going backwards. Quite the contrary. But with progress comes a new learning curve and more details to sort through. The beauty of muzzleloaders, or any firearms for that matter, is that you can go back to the beginning, follow the progression as far as you like and stop there. There will be benefits and shortcomings with whatever you choose and like all things you have to take the good with the bad.

The other part of this is that once you get it figured out you can settle into something and get comfortable. For me, I love muzzleloaders and that's all I hunt with and really shoot anymore. I love the smoke, the smells, and the process that goes with shooting one. At the same time I have three kids, a full time job, and a farm to take care of. Doesn't matter how much I love to shoot, time is always at a premium. Shooting a muzzleloader means cleaning it right after for me. That means I need a solid two hour block at a minimum and I just can't always make that happen. So I can quit shooting or shoot a lot less. Or I could shoot a smokeless muzzleloader. That's what I chose. This allows me to shoot more frequently since I don't have to clean it right after. Sure, I lose a lot of the things that I like about shooting BP subs. I can't throw a volume charge at the bench. I don't get the giant clouds of smoke or the smell of sulpher. I have to be a little more careful with bullet to bore fit and what have you. But I can go out and take a few shots when I have time then put the gun away and go on about my day. It works out. Someday when time allows I hope to go back to something different but for now this works for me and I'm happy.

Point is find something you like, learn the quirks that go with it, and shoot it. And when you decide you want to try something else then do that and start over. While a few traditionalists will disagree, there's no wrong answer to what the right muzzleloader is. You just have to accept the good with the bad.

Great post!
 
Lots of folks don't like those powerbelts but I've introduced them to more than a few tasty whitetails who were blown away by their effectiveness. The 250 Hornady is a popular deer slayer even in its supplied sabot. The 300 is super. Find those o-rings to seal the breach plug and use what primer you can get. I didn't realize that you're up in Canada, eh. I will send you some o-rings if you need. Like Kirby said, only do what you're comfortable with and have fun doin it til you want to try something else. Im starting to look hard at smokeless now. Wife is gonna be PO'd!
 
Do you have any shops that carry Reloading supplies for shotguns? That's where I would look for primers, not in the ML section. The CCI ML primers you did get would be ok if you wind up using Black, Pyrodex, AP or 777. If you have a Cabela's, they usually carry Harvester Sabots both smooth Short black and Crushrib.
 
At my Cabelas you have to go to the counter for shotshell reloading 209 primers. You will not find them with the ML or other reloading supplies. Sales staff are encouraged to sell you the more expensive item and many are clueless when it comes to muzzle loading. They push what management and suppliers tell them to push.

A quick look at Cabelas Canada website listed Fed209A and RemSTS 209. They also had Cheddite.
https://www.cabelas.ca/category/reloading-primers/2554
 
DaveyKBC, don't expect to learn all the ins and outs by the next commercial :) . Just do some research, pick a good starting point, clean your rifle then take it to the range. Don't forget to thoroughly clean it when you are done. :D
 
At my Cabelas you have to go to the counter for shotshell reloading 209 primers. You will not find them with the ML or other reloading supplies. Sales staff are encouraged to sell you the more expensive item and many are clueless when it comes to muzzle loading. They push what management and suppliers tell them to push.

A quick look at Cabelas Canada website listed Fed209A and RemSTS 209. They also had Cheddite.
https://www.cabelas.ca/category/reloading-primers/2554

Thank You, Yes same here, I had to go to the counter. They often have things listed "on-line" that are not available in my local store. I can of course order on line & get things shipped to the store. Last week the store had the Federal Premiums & another brand (I forget the maker) again my fault I guess for not knowing exactly what I actually need.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top