777 ffg vs BH209

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My brother went to a gun show and while there he called me.Said he found an open bottle of bh 209 powder.The price started out at $38.00,guy marked it down at half price.My brother asked if he would go lower,ha,right.The dealer said since it was the last day he would drop the price down to $10.00.I told him to snatch it and run.And that he did.Since I only shoot about 5 times a year I figure I'll have some for awhile.Thank God for a good younger brother.
 
I wouldn't have started down the path of muzzleloading had it not been for blackhorn, as a centerfire nut down here in Southeast Texas I watch people who shot muzzleloaders once or twice and then had to go break them completely down and clean them ,I like to shoot too much to spend all my time cleaning not that I haven't become a cleaning freak I haveI just thought that was crazy, Black Horn has changed the dynamic of my shooting personality, I ended up in smokeless Nirvana, but I'm still anchored to my blackhorn
 
It isn't 777 that causes the crud ring. I've shot it for years using #11 caps without crud. I didn't know what it was until I bought a rifle that shoots shotgun primers. 777 is almost as fast as BH 209, and way, way cheaper. Cleaning a gun with water and soap is as easy as using solvent. I swab between shots, which cools the barrel and makes for better groups. If you need more than one shot, you've messed up. I've tried BH, but couldn't tell any difference in accuracy, and I could sure tell the difference in my wallet.
 
mnoland30 said:
It isn't 777 that causes the crud ring. I've shot it for years using #11 caps without crud. I didn't know what it was until I bought a rifle that shoots shotgun primers. 777 is almost as fast as BH 209, and way, way cheaper. Cleaning a gun with water and soap is as easy as using solvent. I swab between shots, which cools the barrel and makes for better groups. If you need more than one shot, you've messed up. I've tried BH, but couldn't tell any difference in accuracy, and I could sure tell the difference in my wallet.
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Well, all I know is that with the 777 I had a crud ring, horrible fouling and bullets all over the paper. Since BH209, I am shooting 1" groups and don't have to clean my gun until the end of season. If I had to use 777, pyrodex or blackpowder, I would not be shooting a muzzle loader. Black Horn is too darn expensive though, to shoot your gun much.
 
Steven858 said:
I picked up the right breech plug. No where local sells the stuff and a 10 ounce container is $57 shipped compared to the 777fg 1 pound for $48 shipped. Is it really that much better?
Thank you
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If I had to use 777, I would quit shooting a ML altogether. I fought that crap for 3 years.
 
sabotloader said:
At the range, I certainly do not mind running a patch between shots - it truly slows me down and allows some barrel cooling. Hunting I really do not run a patch after each shot. Normally I can load 4-5 shots before the 'crud ring' has built up enough to notice. For myself - the 'Crud Ring' has become a non factor. But in all honesty the ease of BH is really great. Just with the price was, I still can get a full pound of T7 for $20-$24 on sale and at the end of the year.

There are a couple of factors that I have found that helps limit the extent of the 'crud ring'. The things that you might use in your bore SEEM to be one of the biggest factors. I have eliminated ANYTHING with Teflon for use in the bore. Also I use only synthetic oil products - namely using only Montana Xtreme bore conditioner or Slip 2000 for lubricants. Another item that can effect the formation of the ring is the primer, if you are igniting the powder using primers. Use the lowest heat producing primer you can.

Then it really does take awhile to condition the bore. It doesn't happen over night.
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My bore was completely clean of any oil or solvents, and after 3 shots, I had to clean it, or not shoot. I tried Winchester primers and CCI, no difference. With the 777, I finally had to totally clean after every shot, to get any kind of consistency. Black Horn 209 ended that. I feel like I have been robbed everytime I buy some, but that is the way it is.
 
I can’t imagine shooting with anything other than BH. The main problem, as I see it, is that no other manufacturers produce anything comparable, leaving Western Powder free to gouge the consumer.
 
Sideshow said:
I know encore but it seems they sure are proud of it !!! On much we use its pricey these days . And bhorn does need to be challenged or even surpassed .
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Yes, BH209 is gouging the snot out of us, but, I managed to buy a bunch of it on markdown, enough for several years. Maybe by then, either Western Powders will have got reasonable, or someone will have come out with an alternative. The price for 10 oz is ridiculously too high. The only way you can come close to paying a reasonable price. I will say that the 4 Traditions junk rifles I had, contributed to the problem. CVA Accura and BH209 made it a whole new game.
 
Chick said:
Yes, BH209 is gouging the snot out of us, but, I managed to buy a bunch of it on markdown, enough for several years. Maybe by then, either Western Powders will have got reasonable, or someone will have come out with an alternative. The price for 10 oz is ridiculously too high. The only way you can come close to paying a reasonable price. I will say that the 4 Traditions junk rifles I had, contributed to the problem. CVA Accura and BH209 made it a whole new game.
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Glad you got a gun now that doesnt "waste it" . Those Accuras seem to really shoot good !!! My buddy has one , a 50 , and it is exceptionally accurate to 171yds . Thats the length of his favorite range he goes to . Shoots Harvester white lightenings to about a 1 1/4 group way out there !!! I was VERY impressed !!!
Bh209 DEFINATELY NEEDS some competition in the marketplace !!! Their all carried away with themselves.......
 
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Good discussion. I love Blackhorn too. Yes it is pricey (unless you snipe it at the end of the season on discount)

One point: a typical Blackhorn bottle is 10oz by weight. If you account for loading it by volume then the bottle is almost equivalent to 14 Oz of black powder. That takes some of the "$ting" away for me.
 
And as I've said before, If you purchase 5 (LBs) at a time you can buy it a LOT cheaper . My last jug was $250. delivered to my door. And there are others out there that sell quantities like this. That is if you like to shoot it and shoot as much as I do. Lots of end of the year bargains out there too.
 
mnoland30 said:
It isn't 777 that causes the crud ring. I've shot it for years using #11 caps without crud. I didn't know what it was until I bought a rifle that shoots shotgun primers. 777 is almost as fast as BH 209, and way, way cheaper. Cleaning a gun with water and soap is as easy as using solvent. I swab between shots, which cools the barrel and makes for better groups. If you need more than one shot, you've messed up. I've tried BH, but couldn't tell any difference in accuracy, and I could sure tell the difference in my wallet.
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You're correct. imho. It is the use of the 209 primer that makes the 777 crud. Almost like it's overcooking/frying it before it can properly ignite. I use it in my revolvers and it leaves almost no mess. I don't use it in my rifles anymore tho. But i may try it in my Whites. They're #11 guns.
 
I don't know much about it other than I tried it in my Knight Bighorn. I fought with the crud ring and switched to Pyrodex Select and never looked back. I do use Musket caps on the Bighorn though. Maybe something to the "too hot" theory .
 
michiganmuzzy said:
You're correct. imho. It is the use of the 209 primer that makes the 777 crud. Almost like it's overcooking/frying it before it can properly ignite. I use it in my revolvers and it leaves almost no mess. I don't use it in my rifles anymore tho. But i may try it in my Whites. They're #11 guns.
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I shot Triple Seven 3F with Good Results, i liked it! With No. 11 Caps the Crud Ring wasn’t bad at all, Very similar to the Swiss Real Blackpowder that i use. But when we Switched to another Rifle setup with Knight’s RPJ Setup (209s) The Crud Ring was a REAL BEAR!! That Hotter 209 Created a GNARLY Crud Ring!
 
ENCORE50A said:
Is this the post you're referring to?



If so.....I'll agree with the use of regular cleaning fluids when shooting BH209.

However, I still stand by my original statement of cleaning T7 in my rifle is much faster and I'll use less patches than any rifle I've owned shooting BH209.
What wasn't pointed out in my original statement, was that the rifle was a UF and not a "normal" production rifle. I should apologize for not being specific about the rifle.
I can take my time cleaning that rifle, use no more than 6 patches and be done in less than 7 minutes. Spotless clean. All while making a completely amateur video.


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How do you deal with the breechplug? I’ve read they are not removable but I don’t own one and it seems like it would hold a lot of fouling. I guess though, like a sidelock, you just get it as good as you can and call it a moment.
 
Doccbst1 said:
I started with Goex FF for my sidelock. The got an inline so I could use a scope. Found out about 777 and loved it. Shot great and not to bad to clean with soap and water. Then came Blackhorn, didn't really work for my magbolt even with mods, had misfires. Bought another rifle just for Blackhorn. TC Impact, out of the box Blackhorn ready $189 shipped.
I took a chance and just cleaned yesterday, last shot 12/19/19 after being loaded and 3 fouling shots 12/14/19.
Yea, I took a big chance but I had to verify all I'd read.
Easiest rifle I've ever cleaned, 2 dry patches very dirty then used 2 patches wet with Hoppes Elite. 2'nd wet almost clean, Then 2 dry patches last came out clean.
Expensive but this stuffs for real and my inline rifles will only see Blackhorn until something better comes out. I bought 3 on clearance last year for total $36 and still have 2 full. If I have to pay $36 for 1 still worth my money.
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sdporter said:
How do you deal with the breechplug? I’ve read they are not removable but I don’t own one and it seems like it would hold a lot of fouling. I guess though, like a sidelock, you just get it as good as you can and call it a moment.
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Is njoyed the video by the way. I do the same thing, flip the patches, but on my last pass or two, I double them up so they are TIGHT, don’t know if it makes a difference or not. Just something I do.
 
Chick said:
Yes, BH209 is gouging the snot out of us, but, I managed to buy a bunch of it on markdown, enough for several years. Maybe by then, either Western Powders will have got reasonable, or someone will have come out with an alternative. The price for 10 oz is ridiculously too high. The only way you can come close to paying a reasonable price. I will say that the 4 Traditions junk rifles I had, contributed to the problem. CVA Accura and BH209 made it a whole new game.
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I have never seen it on clearance. $40 for 10 oz is way too high. I swore I would never support it. Everything that fits into a “niche” is way overpriced. Bows for instance. I personally would never spend a grand on a bow. There is no way that much cost of materials to justify a production line piece of aluminum, carbon fiber, and a string costing that kind of money.
I did finally breakdown and try BH209 and I will spend the $40 over and over. The one thing I really detest about it though, is the static cling to the plastic bottle. I swear I waste two or three loads out of every one that sticks to the inside and outside of the bottle.
 
sdporter said:
How do you deal with the breechplug? I’ve read they are not removable but I don’t own one and it seems like it would hold a lot of fouling. I guess though, like a sidelock, you just get it as good as you can and call it a moment.
Click to expand...

You're right, the UF rifle breech plugs are non-removable. That whole issue was intentional, because of two reasons, one, it was thought that shooters would damage the threads if the breech plug was removable. The other, was more money was to be made by replacing breech plugs. The breech plug threads wedge themselves into the barrel threads on the UF. Very little fouling continues to get into the threads after its wedged in place, after only a few rounds shot. To remove them, the nipple almost always breaks, then it has to be drilled. Once a hole is drilled in the plug, a large EZ-out is used to remove the remaining threads of the plug. Remington made their plugs much harder, thus removable.
Yes, it ends up being like a sidelock and quite easy to clean.
 
michiganmuzzy said:
You're correct. imho. It is the use of the 209 primer that makes the 777 crud. Almost like it's overcooking/frying it before it can properly ignite. I use it in my revolvers and it leaves almost no mess. I don't use it in my rifles anymore tho. But i may try it in my Whites. They're #11 guns.
Click to expand...
It did shoot well out of my Whites and I never did notice any real hard fouling, unless the gun wasn’t cleaned for a day or two after shooting it, which I am ashamed to admit I did a couple of times. Head to the range get home late, head to the range a day or two later and pick up where I left off. Then I noticed a pretty gritty push down the barrel. Only on the first shot though.
 

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