Question for White Mountain Carbine owners?

I am trying to design a barrel for a Renegade that will be longer than the stock 1" straight octagon barrel which is 26" long.

In order to keep the weight of the rifle reasonable, Scott at Colerain Barrels, and I, are considering an octagon-round profile.

Can anyone tell me the exact length of the octagon portion of the barrel on the White Mountain Carbine?

Thanks,
Bruce

Bruce Mattes said:

I am trying to design a barrel for a Renegade that will be longer than the stock 1" straight octagon barrel which is 26" long.

In order to keep the weight of the rifle reasonable, Scott at Colerain Barrels, and I, are considering an octagon-round profile.

Can anyone tell me the exact length of the octagon portion of the barrel on the White Mountain Carbine?

Thanks,
Bruce

Click to expand...

I just sold my WMC 2 days ago. Sorry

That should look pretty sharp. My Austin & Halleck has a barrel like that.

Mine stops being flat sided at 12 3/8" we're it meets the under rib . The stock's channel is 12 5/16" .

Saxtonyoung,

Thanks for that info. I was guessing at 12", so I was pretty close in my guess.

By any chance do you also own a Renegade? If so, where does the end of the octagon on the White Mountain Carbine barrel line up in reference to the tip of the Renegade stock's forearm, when the barrel is installed into the tang?

Bruce

Just checked a Renegade and the barrel channel after tang is 13 13/16" . One of my WMC has a Hawken stock that was shortened to fit the carbine barrel. Since your starting with a new barrel you can make it fit the Renegade stock and attach the appropriate size under rib without altering the stock .

Saxtonyoung said:

Just checked a Renegade and the barrel channel after tang is 13 13/16" . One of my WMC has a Hawken stock that was shortened to fit the carbine barrel. Since your starting with a new barrel you can make it fit the Renegade stock and attach the appropriate size under rib without altering the stock .

Click to expand...

There you are Saxton!! I just used your “Hotrod Hawken” Cougar picture, I haven’t seen you post in a LONG time

I'll admit that I have been awful quiet lately Lewis ,but decided to login this morning and was pleasantly surprised with your version of the Silver Elite. Very nice.

Bruce, I noticed in one of your other post that you contemplated a short 21" barrel. What is your intended use for this gun. Hunting, long range target or perhaps both ?

Saxtonyoung

My intentions with this new to me smoothbore are.....

1.) To shoot for pleasure.

2.) To shoot for practice in field-simulated positions in order to reaquire the skills necessary to ethically hunt.

3.) To hunt ONLY when those skills have been obtained to my satisfaction.

4.) To hunt all manner of game, from small to medium-sized...
a) airborne birds (dove's, etc.)
b) ground-based birds (turkeys)
c) small game (squirrels, rabbits, etc)
d) medium game (feral hogs, black bear, whitetail deer)

5.) Since this will be a smoothbore, long distance shooting, except for fun at targets will not be a factor.

Since my disposable income is limited, in all likelihood the new m-l weapon will be a 20 gauge (19.6 in actuality) smoothbore. This will allow me to legally hunt all the species listed above in all 50 states, whether it is the regular hunting season, or the muzzleloading season.

The kicker is turkey hunting. Since I will probably only be hunting east of the Mississippi river, the 20 bore muzzleloader will allow me to hunt in all of those states. Most states have a 20 gauge minimum for breech-loading weapons in at least one of their turkey seasons. Some states are kinda equivocal about bore size when it comes to turkey hunting with a muzzleloader.

I figured a 20 gauge smoothbore will take care of all of those equivicallities.

Since best results in smoothbores almost always comes with longer barrels, thus all of my questions here lately regarding the T/C Renegade, and octagon-round barrels.

There is a man up in Pennsylvania that Scott from Colerain put me in touch with that will put together a drop-in barrel for a T/C Hawken or Renegade. He acquires all of the parts, including the barrel (customer makes all of the decisions, he just purchases everything to avoid multiple extra shipping charges); including either bluing, browning, or CeraKote.

Now that I have the dimensions of the octagon portion of a White Mountain Carbine barrel, and the forearm lengths for both the WMC and the Renegade; I can plan out a swamped, octagon-round
barrel with a 0.620" bore diameter.

When that is completed on paper, then I can call Dee and see if he will build the barrel with a soldered under rib. As you all know, T/C used thick barrel walls, and screwed their under ribs to the barrel with 6-48 screws.

The barrel length that I would like will require thin walls at the waist, necessitating a soldered under rib. Otherwise, it's a much shorter barrel with much thicker barrel walls.

Also, I will be shortening the length of pull to 13". This is with a Kick-eez Magnum, 1.375" thick, grind-to-fit recoil pad installed in lieu of the steel buttplate.

Once the steel scope base, rings, and scope are installed, then we'll see where the balance point falls. I would like for the smoothbore to have a neutral-to-slightly muzzle heavy balance, like a good wing-shooting upland shotgun.

Anywho,
I'll have to see what Dee will, or will not do, as far as a T/C Renegade drop-in barrel is concerned, and I'll keep everyone updated.

Bruce

Saxtonyoung

I finished the above post, and realized I never answered your first question.

For some time I have been a fan of Col. Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle concept, and have been figuring ways to try and implement that concept with a muzzleloader.

To truly adhere to the concept, one would need a m-l capable of accurate fire out to 300 meters.

A round ball rifle could do it, but it would need to be at least .66 caliber, and weigh in excess of 10 pounds. Hardly, a scout rifle.

A bullet shooting rifle would seem to fit the bill, except Idaholewis recently pointed out to me the limitations of the below .50 caliber, fast twist barrels. They foul rapidly, at least in his climate, with hard, crusty black powder fouling.

And, the larger the bore, the more recoil is generated.

For the scout rifle concept to work with a muzzleloading rifle, in my estimation, it would have to be capable of repeated shots (20+), without wiping the bore.

In addition, the bullet, once seated over the powder charge/lubricated wool wad; would NEED TO STAY SEATED THROUGH OUT THE EXERTIONS OF A SCOUT/ or hunter during the normal movements of still hunting.

I KNOW that 100 plus shots without wiping are possible with a proper rifling twist, groove depth, cloth patch thickness, patch lubricant (natural animal fat of some sort), and lead ball diameter.

What I DON'T KNOW is if even 1/5th the number of that many shots is possible with.....

1.) 23", or shorter, barrel
2.) .50 caliber with a 1-20"-1-24" twist
3.) 1"-1.375" thick recoil pad
4.) 12.5"-13" L.O.P.
5.) sidelock percussion ignition
6.) tang-mounted ghost ring rear sight
7.) EASY-TO-SEE front sight
8.) #'s 6 & 7 are B.U.I.S, not the primary sights
9.) STEEL, full-length, left-offset, scope base with minimal Picatinny slots capable of mounting a red dot sight / a rear-mounted, long-range, riflescope / or a forward-mounted Scout scope.
10.) STEEL, Talley or Warne, Q-D lever scope rings that will return to zero EVERYTIME they are removed (and replaced) for cleaning the barrel/rifle.
11.) BEST QUALITY optics. Inexpensive, poorly made optics have no place on a Scout Rifle. This has been proven over and over when shooters have trained at Gunsite, and other schools that teach the Scout Rifle concept. 600/800 rounds of .308 Win over the course of 5-6 days will test a scope/rifle combination.

Anyway, I figured a person could probably get everything but the weight in for a m-l scout rifle.

I don't think 3 kilos is possible.

Under 1 meter is possible.

A properly mounted Leupold or Burris Scout scope is possible.

The B.U.I.S. would take a little finagling, but they are possible.

Getting the iron sights, and the optical sight co-aligned would take a lot of work, but is possible.

Flush-mounted sling swivel bases, probably only possible if building a stock from scratch.

Otherwise, 1", black, locking, GrovTec, GTSW01 sling swivels on a stud post in the buttstock, and a ramrod pipe stud on the barrel.

A Rhodesian sling from Andy's Leathers in Biothane (synthetic), or leather is possible.

I had mentioned in another post a short-barreled, .58 caliber, 1-48" twist Renegade. With all of the above mods, it still would not really be a Scout Rifle.

Because, even scoped, the parabolic trajectory of the round ball would make reaching out to a 300 meter steel target a difficult proposition. Not to hunt, that would be unethical. There's no way I want to shoot .58 caliber conicals in a less than 9-11 pound rifle, so shooting a ballistically superior conical in a 7 pound rifle seems foolish to this old man.

That's enough for now.
Bruce