.40 cal Bullet Performance at Black Powder Velocities?

[Matthew323]

MtMonkey over on the Smokeless Muzzleloading section of the forums, has proposed an intriguing idea for me to consider. Which is shooting .40 caliber bullets out of the light blue Harvester Crush Rib .45 caliber sabots.

Being the contrarian that I am, and what with my first love being flintlocks, I was curious if I could combine the two ideas.

Jason at Rice Muzzleloading Barrels has told me that he will be willing to fabricate a 4140CM steel, octagon-round, 1:14" twist, 0.450" bore diameter, 0.458" groove diameter, fast twist barrel for me for an additional cost over the $375.00 for the Thompson Center drop-in barrels such as Idaholewis has purchased.

If I can get a piece of gun barrel quality 4140CM in sufficient diameter, 1.6"-1.75", then I think I will have Jason make up a 19" long, swamped, triple-taper, octagon-round barrel with a short flared muzzle. The breech will measure 1.434" A.t.F. octagon, tapering to 1.350" A.t.F. octagon at 7" (transition to round).
The barrel will then taper to 0.770" diameter at 11", with a third taper to 0.710" diameter at 16". Then it would flare out to 1.010" in diameter at the muzzle. Total weight approximately 3.25 pounds. For a 6.5-7 pound flintlock rifle when finished.

The reason for such a large diameter breech, is to allow for clearance between the ocular bell of the scope, and the hammer of the lock.

The scope will be mounted to the barrel's, integral, 0.100" deep, Talley, scope ring, dovetail bases, that will be machined into the top flat of the octagonal breech once the length of pull has been established. Dove's Custom Guns. ($500.00) [email protected]

I am curious as to the muzzle velocities that the Fury & Pittman .402 caliber bullets designed for use in the light blue Harvester Crush Rib sabots need to operate at in order to expand properly.

Does anyone posting here think that those bullets will work at black powder velocities in a flintlock? Or, do I need to consider a .402 diameter lead conical in the blue sabot?

Thanks, and remember I'm a contrarian, please don't tell me to go all modern. I know there is a way to combine the old & the new, one just has to think outside the box. Or, eliminate the box altogether.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Not quite the bullets you mentioned, but I had great success with Hornady .40 caliber 180 and 200 grain XTPs in Harvester crush ribs.
The 180 grainer and 50 grains of 3f Swiss got 1550 fps ( and a doe) 60 grains got 1750 fps (and a fine 8 pointer)and 70 grains with the 200 got 1800 fps (and another fine doe) shots were 12-50 yards and the does were BOOM flops. The buck ran 50 yards and tipped over. The 180 went in his left side, behind the shoulder, and I found it under the hide on his right ham.
The XTPs I've used, 40 ( 180 and 200 grain) 44 ( 240 grain) and 45 caliber ( 250 and 300 grain) have been very uniform in both accuracy and terminal performance. They aren't expensive and, until recently, not hard to find. They've never let me down.

 

[eekjellander]

MtMonkey over on the Smokeless Muzzleloading section of the forums, has proposed an intriguing idea for me to consider. Which is shooting .40 caliber bullets out of the light blue Harvester Crush Rib .45 caliber sabots.

Being the contrarian that I am, and what with my first love being flintlocks, I was curious if I could combine the two ideas.

Jason at Rice Muzzleloading Barrels has told me that he will be willing to fabricate a 4140CM steel, octagon-round, 1:14" twist, 0.450" bore diameter, 0.458" groove diameter, fast twist barrel for me for an additional cost over the $375.00 for the Thompson Center drop-in barrels such as Idaholewis has purchased.

If I can get a piece of gun barrel quality 4140CM in sufficient diameter, 1.6"-1.75", then I think I will have Jason make up a 19" long, swamped, triple-taper, octagon-round barrel with a short flared muzzle. The breech will measure 1.434" A.t.F. octagon, tapering to 1.350" A.t.F. octagon at 7" (transition to round).
The barrel will then taper to 0.770" diameter at 11", with a third taper to 0.710" diameter at 16". Then it would flare out to 1.010" in diameter at the muzzle. Total weight approximately 3.25 pounds. For a 6.5-7 pound flintlock rifle when finished.

The reason for such a large diameter breech, is to allow for clearance between the ocular bell of the scope, and the hammer of the lock.

The scope will be mounted to the barrel's, integral, 0.100" deep, Talley, scope ring, dovetail bases, that will be machined into the top flat of the octagonal breech once the length of pull has been established. Dove's Custom Guns. ($500.00) [email protected]

I am curious as to the muzzle velocities that the Fury & Pittman .402 caliber bullets designed for use in the light blue Harvester Crush Rib sabots need to operate at in order to expand properly.

Does anyone posting here think that those bullets will work at black powder velocities in a flintlock? Or, do I need to consider a .402 diameter lead conical in the blue sabot?

Thanks, and remember I'm a contrarian, please don't tell me to go all modern. I know there is a way to combine the old & the new, one just has to think outside the box. Or, eliminate the box altogether.

If your that into it look a little further and get a mold (lee /cheap to start and cast your own ,vary the hardness and you can answer the question . I did with 2 accurate molds (cause I can ) sliks .0400 in harvester crush ribs (very accurate ) pure lead works best /Ed

 

[Matthew323]

What do youse guys think the max length on a cast lead bullet in .40 caliber without grease grooves should be for one of these Harvester Crush Rib sabots? I was spitballing on paper last night using the Accurate Molds #40-320B bullet as a basis to play with.

Using mold #45-450M to come up with a different nose shape......a wider meplat, 0.313" in diameter × 0.195" long nose.

With centered tolerances (+/- 0.001"), on the mold for a 0.400" diameter bullet.

I am thinking that a 400 grain bullet (400.1805) at 1.205" long is probably too long for either sabot, .45 or .50 caliber.

A 300 grain bullet (300.5505) at 0.905" long is probably a better idea.

Length, bullet= 0.905"
Length, nose= 0.195"
Diameter, meplat= 0.313"
Radius, ogive= R.5
Diameter, body= 0.400"
Length, body= 0.710"

What do you think?

Thanks

 

[eekjellander]

I am 5 weeks into waiting for a 40-290S ,another 2-3 weeks and I will have samples/Ed

 

[Ninering62]

MtMonkey over on the Smokeless Muzzleloading section of the forums, has proposed an intriguing idea for me to consider. Which is shooting .40 caliber bullets out of the light blue Harvester Crush Rib .45 caliber sabots.

Being the contrarian that I am, and what with my first love being flintlocks, I was curious if I could combine the two ideas.

Jason at Rice Muzzleloading Barrels has told me that he will be willing to fabricate a 4140CM steel, octagon-round, 1:14" twist, 0.450" bore diameter, 0.458" groove diameter, fast twist barrel for me for an additional cost over the $375.00 for the Thompson Center drop-in barrels such as Idaholewis has purchased.

If I can get a piece of gun barrel quality 4140CM in sufficient diameter, 1.6"-1.75", then I think I will have Jason make up a 19" long, swamped, triple-taper, octagon-round barrel with a short flared muzzle. The breech will measure 1.434" A.t.F. octagon, tapering to 1.350" A.t.F. octagon at 7" (transition to round).
The barrel will then taper to 0.770" diameter at 11", with a third taper to 0.710" diameter at 16". Then it would flare out to 1.010" in diameter at the muzzle. Total weight approximately 3.25 pounds. For a 6.5-7 pound flintlock rifle when finished.

The reason for such a large diameter breech, is to allow for clearance between the ocular bell of the scope, and the hammer of the lock.

The scope will be mounted to the barrel's, integral, 0.100" deep, Talley, scope ring, dovetail bases, that will be machined into the top flat of the octagonal breech once the length of pull has been established. Dove's Custom Guns. ($500.00) [email protected]

I am curious as to the muzzle velocities that the Fury & Pittman .402 caliber bullets designed for use in the light blue Harvester Crush Rib sabots need to operate at in order to expand properly.

Does anyone posting here think that those bullets will work at black powder velocities in a flintlock? Or, do I need to consider a .402 diameter lead conical in the blue sabot?

Thanks, and remember I'm a contrarian, please don't tell me to go all modern. I know there is a way to combine the old & the new, one just has to think outside the box. Or, eliminate the box altogether.

Its great to be reading your posts again. I've missed them.

 

[Matthew323]

Might even go to a shorter, lighter, bullet than 300 grains for use in the sabots. 276 grains.

Accurate Molds #45-450M (nose)
Accurate Molds #40-320B (body)

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-450M
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-320B
320 gr. (W-W) × 55 ÷ 53 = 332.076 gr. (P-L)
332.1 (Pure Lead) × length of any new bullet

Length, bullet = 0.830"
Length, nose = 0.195"
Diameter, meplat = 0.313"
Radius, ogive = R.5
Diameter, body = 0.400"
Length, body = 0.635"
Weight, gr., (P-L), calculated = 275.643
Weight, gr., (P-L), nominal = 276
Weight, gr., (W-W), calculated = 265.62
Accurate's New Mold Number = #40-266S (muzzleloading)(sabot)

 

[45-70]

What do youse guys think the max length on a cast lead bullet in .40 caliber without grease grooves should be for one of these Harvester Crush Rib sabots? I was spitballing on paper last night using the Accurate Molds #40-320B bullet as a basis to play with.

Using mold #45-450M to come up with a different nose shape......a wider meplat, 0.313" in diameter × 0.195" long nose.

With centered tolerances (+/- 0.001"), on the mold for a 0.400" diameter bullet.

I am thinking that a 400 grain bullet (400.1805) at 1.205" long is probably too long for either sabot, .45 or .50 caliber.

A 300 grain bullet (300.5505) at 0.905" long is probably a better idea.

Length, bullet= 0.905"
Length, nose= 0.195"
Diameter, meplat= 0.313"
Radius, ogive= R.5
Diameter, body= 0.400"
Length, body= 0.710"

What do you think?

Thanks

why go to all that trouble to sabots why not just a 14 twist in .40 cal.

 

[mnoland30]

I shot Fury 310 gr. .401 caliber out of my 22 twist .45 30" barrel with the light blue sabots. They shot well, but I haven't chronographed them yet.

 

[mgwett]

why go to all that trouble to sabots why not just a 14 twist in .40 cal.

I agree with .45-70....ditch the sabot and do a .40 barrel if you’re wanting to shoot a .40 bullet. I tried running .40 bullets in the crushed rib sabot in my .45 and had problems with sabot failure when I started to push them harder. Sabots started coming apart and this is in a 1:20 twist. I’ve got to think a 1:14 twist will really be tough on a sabot. I don’t know what you’ll be able to shoot for powder charge in this gun and you may be just fine but something to consider. Also, your accuracy should be better without the sabot.

 

[Mnt monkey]

I like having a 45 ,14 twist that I can shoot 300-400 gr bore riders and 250-300 gr 40 cals in light blue,I like the shorter powder colum of the 45,,I'm not trying to blow sabots,just looking for accuracy,I'm shooting blackhorn for now in the rifle,so far the 14 twist 45 has been more consistent for me shooting the fury 240,and 250 in light blue. Again I don't have a long history of shooting muzzleloaders that many of you do , but it seems like most of us that shoot a 28 twist 50 cal are shooting some kind of bullet either 452 or 458 and some type of sabot, more and more shooters are purchasing sizing dies and shooting bore riders and I absolutely agree that method is the most accurate .I like as much sectional dinsity- potential bc,as I can shoot tolerating the recoil that load gives,to me the fast twist 45 gives me options,,I like options.i am about to get a 40 cal put together,, will it have the flexibility of my fast twist 45 I don't think so but that's okay too,, 45-70 maybe I need both rifles!!!

 

[Matthew323]

why go to all that trouble to sabots why not just a 14 twist in .40 cal.

Because when Idaholewis shot his fast twist .40 caliber barrel he found that the much higher pressures in the .40 caliber burnt out the AMPCO nipples at an extremely fast rate. The jump to .45 caliber reduces pressures to the point where nipple life becomes reasonable.

Even in a flintlock with removable, 1/4"-28, RMC, OX-YOKE, AMPCO bronze touch hole liners, and the lower pressures due to the flintlock's open breech, a .40 caliber would still burn out the touch hole liners at an accelerated rate.

 

[45-70]

Because when Idaholewis shot his fast twist .40 caliber barrel he found that the much higher pressures in the .40 caliber burnt out the AMPCO nipples at an extremely fast rate. The jump to .45 caliber reduces pressures to the point where nipple life becomes reasonable.

good luck

 

[eekjellander]

My CVA Paramount (45) cal is extremely accurate @100 yds ,only chance I got to shoot with the accurate mold ,I have been braggin here on with a Harvester pale blue sabot 45-to 40 . Lots to like and (NO NEGATIVES) ,flat out works with OE 75-80 gr 2F

 

[Matthew323]

Remember, I am somewhat of a contrarian. My goal is not the highest possible velocities, nor the flattest trajectories. I am looking at this scenario from the point of view of (at least at first) strictly shooting regular black powder. And, not necessarily, high performance Swiss black powder. I want this to be able to work with Goex, Schuetzen, Olde Eynsford, as well as Swiss. In my 14" barreled, CVA Optima V2 pistol, I am simply not going to achieve rifle barrel velocities. Nor, do I care. However, based on my conversations with MtMonkey, his range results, and the performance of the .40 caliber bullets that he has shot at game animals; I am convinced that a .40 caliber bullet (modern pistol)(modern muzzleloading)(lead conical) loaded into a .45 caliber, or .50 caliber, Crush Rib sabot; will deliver ease of loading, and sufficient velocity/bullet performance for 75 yards and closer pistol hunting.

 

[user 23626]

I totally agree. I've recovered the PRB from two Pronghorn, both on the offside skin. They expanded reliably to the size of a dime with hardly any bloodshot meat. Perfect performance from my Orig 45 H&A underhammer with 75 gr measured Elephant 2F. One DRT and a doe who went 30yds before piling up. I can't ask for more than that from a hunting BP rifle. It's all about the intended use. My bucket list is a Mountain Lion with my 50 or 54 H&A custom switch bbl. Trapping last year I had to turn 3 loose per state law (Trophy animal) but hope to call one in this fall. At 75+ my biological clocks speeding up.....Trader

 

[Matthew323]

Trader, I intend to try patched balls in this pistol, probably with the brake removed, and the knurled muzzle cap installed. Although, Levi Reed, the owner of LR Customs, the manufacturer of the muzzle brakes, says he believes that the sabot brake, which has more clearance machined into it, will probably work with a patched ball. Thing is, I'll be his first customer to try shooting patched balls through one of his brakes that he knows of.

I think with either a thin patch and a 0.495" diameter ball, or a thick patch and a 0.480" diameter ball; and light black powder charges in the 30-45 grains range, I should be able to get decent 30-40 yard accuracy with a patched ball. Only a chronograph session will be able to determine if there is sufficient velocity and energy to short range hunt with. Or, just plink at targets with. Either way, it will still be the least expensive way to shoot the pistol.

And, there's always the 0.490" diameter ball to play with. The above three diameter balls are commercially available from Hornady or Speer as swaged lead balls. Of course, any diameter ball mould may be had from....

www.ballmoulds.com

...in the United Kingdom.

Bruce

 

[user 23626]

I forgot to say both of the mentioned antelope were about 65-70 yds distant....Trader