.50 cal. sabot vs full bore/conical ?

[JeffB1961]

i'll be using 777 fffg powder in a optima but haven't decided on what volume yet but it will be 100 grains max . guessing 60-90 grains .
what are the pros vs cons of each ?
is one typically more accurate than the other ?
if going full bore it seems using vegi or felt (or even both) is popular between the bullet and powder ...... where do y'all buy them ?
hard or soft lead ?
hollow point vs flat point ?
is heavier/longer always better for BC ?
i'll be hunting whitetails . maybe ..... just maybe elk down the road .

and .... no excuses makes some budget friendly sabot/bullet combos as well as harvester with their white lightings and GT Bullets makes for very budget friendly 45's . but i guess most any 44-45 cal. ML bullet can be used in the correct sabot . i'm also a fan of Mr. hollowpoint , that gut is funny as poop !

anyhow ....... it seems using sabots is easier since there's less to deal with when reloading . and FWIU using modern sabots fear of plastic in the bore is a non-issue . is leading in the barrel a possible issue to consider if using FB/C's ? i see FB/C's with built in gas checks but i'm wanting to stay budget friendly unless they offer a significant difference at hunting distances . i'm new to ML'ing and have only shot a few rounds to check for recoil and eye relief of my gun/scope . soooo i don't %100 know what my max comfortable hunting distance will be but the places i currently have permissions to hunt at will be under 100yards with a few 150 yard open distances . but the better half's family farm does have a few fields that offer clear/open 300+ yard areas which will be nice for paper punching . but i doubt i'll be confident shooting at a animal beyond 150 . time will tell but i figure what ever max distance i can keep 4-5 inch groups on paper at will be my max for hunting . i have some 250 grain XTP's and crush sabots which will probably be plenty adequate for learning my ML and most likely my comfortable hunting distances . but for future reference restocking bullets and trying different bullets to see what my optima likes best is why i'm asking .

thanks and take care , jeff

 

[ElDiablo]

I’ll need another cup of coffee or two before I dive into this one…..

 

[Harley469]

Someone on the forum will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Optimas are designed for direct bullet to bore applications. I will be honest here, and many will probably disagree with me, based on my many experiments with various bullet/powder combinations in CVA ML's, Powerbelt Platinums work extremely well in regard to accuracy and impact on deer with 100-150 grs of 777. I wouldn't be shooting them for plinking due to the cost. I like MMP sabots and 777 powder, with various bullets (depending on what rifle I am using). I never use black powder or Pyrodex simply due to the smell. As a side note, in CVA ML's I have found absolutely no difference in accuracy/ignition when it comes to loose powder vs pellets.

 

[CatamountRob]

Isn’t a Powerbelt just a conical bullet with a plastic base wad?

 

[Ninering62]

i'll be using 777 fffg powder in a optima but haven't decided on what volume yet but it will be 100 grains max . guessing 60-90 grains .
what are the pros vs cons of each ?
is one typically more accurate than the other ?
if going full bore it seems using vegi or felt (or even both) is popular between the bullet and powder ...... where do y'all buy them ?
hard or soft lead ?
hollow point vs flat point ?
is heavier/longer always better for BC ?
i'll be hunting whitetails . maybe ..... just maybe elk down the road .

and .... no excuses makes some budget friendly sabot/bullet combos as well as harvester with their white lightings and GT Bullets makes for very budget friendly 45's . but i guess most any 44-45 cal. ML bullet can be used in the correct sabot . i'm also a fan of Mr. hollowpoint , that gut is funny as poop !

anyhow ....... it seems using sabots is easier since there's less to deal with when reloading . and FWIU using modern sabots fear of plastic in the bore is a non-issue . is leading in the barrel a possible issue to consider if using FB/C's ? i see FB/C's with built in gas checks but i'm wanting to stay budget friendly unless they offer a significant difference at hunting distances . i'm new to ML'ing and have only shot a few rounds to check for recoil and eye relief of my gun/scope . soooo i don't %100 know what my max comfortable hunting distance will be but the places i currently have permissions to hunt at will be under 100yards with a few 150 yard open distances . but the better half's family farm does have a few fields that offer clear/open 300+ yard areas which will be nice for paper punching . but i doubt i'll be confident shooting at a animal beyond 150 . time will tell but i figure what ever max distance i can keep 4-5 inch groups on paper at will be my max for hunting . i have some 250 grain XTP's and crush sabots which will probably be plenty adequate for learning my ML and most likely my comfortable hunting distances . but for future reference restocking bullets and trying different bullets to see what my optima likes best is why i'm asking .

thanks and take care , jeff

The 250gr XTP's are a good plinking & deer hunting bullet for relatively short ranges. The GT Bullets - are great low cost plinking & hunting bullets for sure. They are my budget go-to's, I bought 300 of them in 3 weights in .40 cal & another 100 255gr .452's for my Accura. That 255gr HP .452 would serve you well in whatever sabot your gun likes for plinking & deer hunting. I'd melt the blue lube off of them if I were gonna hunt with them in a sabot - no need for the lube then. My CVA's do not shoot MMP sabots well at all, regardless of bullet choice. But I don't have an Optima or a .50 either, yours may shoot them fine.

 

[Jitterbug]

If you get into using felt wads, you can buy them, or it’s easy to make your own.

Get 1/8” or 1/4” 100% hard wool felt from Duro-Felt. Duro-Felt Products

I forget the lady’s name, but she’s great to work with, and FREE SHIPPING. She often has “seconds” or odd-shaped material, at a discount.

Buy yourself a chunk of felt or two and go to town, making hundreds of wads!

You’ll need a wad punch. Many brands available, I like a U.S.-made punch by C.S. Osborne. They’re a little pricey, but you can often pick up a like-new example on eBay for cheap. They’re pretty much a lifetime tool for the hobbyist, if used carefully.

There is also an “el cheapo” punch set available at Harbor Freight, if you just want to try making wads… but the Osborne punch is much nicer, if you get into it.

Next, you might like some lube for your wads. You could buy any number of lubes, but that’s boring. Better to spend even more time, and make your own!

Look up a recipe for “Gatofeo #1” lube, it’s widely available online. I melt some lube in a tuna can on a garage sale hot plate, and dump the wads right in the melted lube. Stir them around, then fish them out, and let them solidify.

You can try all sorts of variations of the Gatofeo lube, or there are hundreds of other recipes around!!!

Black powder/muzzleloading has to be about the ultimate hobby for the inveterate tinkerer, or addictive personality, or perfectionist. Unfortunately, I fall into all three of 5hose categories!

There are endless “rabbit holes” to go down, in this hobby!

 

[ElDiablo]

For what you are doing (close-range whitetails) I think your current described set up will be great. Some may say perfect. Really, I think virtually anything will work on whitetails under 100 yards. No need for conicals, IMO, for anything unless you are required by law to use them or have something like a White rifle that was designed to shoot them. I started with conicals back in the day and shot lots of animals with them. For my money, a modern bullet/sabot is superior - flater-shooting, cleaner, more accurate and more reliable terminal performance. Bullet-to-bore (smooth or full-form sized) in .40s and .45s is another subject but sort of a niche area. There are two or three guys out there that are famously great at long range with traditional lead conicals but they are obviously great shooters/tinkerers and are the exception not the rule. I use conicals where required but have killed elk, moose, sheep, goats, mule deer, caribou, African game etc, etc, with 250-300 grain bullets in a sabot from .45 and mostly .50 cal rifles. For dangerous game I would consider big conicals but no need on smaller stuff. Theres nothing in North America or the rest of the world for that matter that I wouldnt feel very comfortable shooting (besides the big bears) with my set up.

As Jitterbug says, there’s plenty of tinkering to do in muzzleloading, and lord knows I’ve done my fair share! But Im a hunter first and a shooter second. If I have an extra day, I spend it scouting not going to the range.

 

[JeffB1961]

Someone on the forum will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Optimas are designed for direct bullet to bore applications. I will be honest here, and many will probably disagree with me, based on my many experiments with various bullet/powder combinations in CVA ML's, Powerbelt Platinums work extremely well in regard to accuracy and impact on deer with 100-150 grs of 777. I wouldn't be shooting them for plinking due to the cost. I like MMP sabots and 777 powder, with various bullets (depending on what rifle I am using). I never use black powder or Pyrodex simply due to the smell. As a side note, in CVA ML's I have found absolutely no difference in accuracy/ignition when it comes to loose powder vs pellets.

i had no idea optimas weren't designed for or didn't play nice with full bore bullets !
when you say 100-150 grains of 777 did you mean the pellets ?
i already have 3 lbs of the 777 fffg and if they still have the other 2 bottles in 2 weeks i'm gonna get them also . i was also given almost a full box 777 pellets .

 

[JeffB1961]

sounds like sticking with sabots is gonna be simpler and the differences going to full bore will be negligible for my use and distances .

the GT bullets definitely are budget friendly if their accuracy is decent . the do sell/show .50 cal but they do sell .44 , .45 and 45-70 . should any of them with in a .50 cal with the proper sabot ?

 

[JeffB1961]

i'm still interested in comments about hollow points vs solid points vs polymer points vs flat points for hunting .

 

[deermanok]

I've been shooting muzzleloaders for over 40 years and I'm afraid that I don't have much to offer as far as different bullets go. Most of my experience has been with the simple round ball and a few different conicals. Thompson Center Maxi Hunters and the old Buffalo Bullet Company "ballettes" were my favorites. I still shoot the maxi's sometimes as I have a lot of them on hand. I also like the Hornady PA conicals, they're similar to the old Buffalos.
It's a journey finding what works best in your rig. That's half the fun.

 

[ElDiablo]

I think at short range on whitetails you wont see much practical difference in terminal performance between the various tip configurations. All will do the job. Bullet weight and construction will probably matter more.

 

[JeffB1961]

thanks folks . i'll get some different 45's to use with sabots and what ever is the most accurate is what i'll use for hunting .

 

[Harley469]

Isn’t a Powerbelt just a conical bullet with a plastic base wad?

basically, but of course that wad is needed, vs. a direct bullet to bore scenario

 

[MrTom]

sounds like sticking with sabots is gonna be simpler and the differences going to full bore will be negligible for my use and distances .

Sticking with sabots and .45 cal bullets is going to offer a whole lot more choices than going the bore rider route and the meager selection of 50 cal bullets..

 

[Harley469]

i had no idea optimas weren't designed for or didn't play nice with full bore bullets !
when you say 100-150 grains of 777 did you mean the pellets ?
i already have 3 lbs of the 777 fffg and if they still have the other 2 bottles in 2 weeks i'm gonna get them also . i was also given almost a full box 777 pellets .

100-150 grns by volume (I want to say that the conversion by weight is like 75% of the volume measure-you would just need to look it up). Pellets/loose powder-hasn't made a difference in the CVA's I have dealt with. Since you have all the loose powder, use it. Pellets are more expensive anyway. They are just very convenient for anyone that doesn't want to deal with measuring powder and pouring it down the barrel. You mention that you have a box of pellets, so go ahead and experiment with them and see what works best for you. As for bullets, someone else mentioned that at your distances it won't really make that much difference- I agree for the most part. I personally use bullets right around 300 grns. This is really only because 300gr bullets seem to always shoot well out of my rifles (unless we are talking round balls, and you aren't). The only other bullet feature will be the ballistic coefficient (BC)- Your rifle will have a 1:28 twist, so you don't want something overly long and pointy, like a Powerbelt ELR. Those higher BC bullets generally need a lower twist rate of at least 1:24. You will have to experiment with that as well. You will need quite a bit of free time now that the temps are up-make sure you allow the barrel time to cool. When attempting to find a new combination for a rifle I will take three shots with each bullet/sabot/powder combination, waiting 15 min between shots with 65+ temps. I prefer actually doing this in the winter, where temps are around 30 degrees so I only wait about 5 min or so between shots. As for sabots, most people on the forums use MMP or Harvester (I personally prefer MMP). You know you will be using 777 powder, the only variable regarding the powder is your amount. I like to stick to the maximum charge of 150grns/volume. Recoil will of course be stiffer with the more powder you use (and the heavier the bullet), but I like to know that I am shooting the flattest trajectory possible, and putting as much power behind the bullet as I can. That being said, you might need to back off some on the powder to get the most out of your rifle in regard to accuracy. I have shot many CVA's, and I have found that 150grns of powder has always worked well for me. But I only use 100 grns with my daughter and the other youth I take hunting (too much recoil for them with higher powder measures). Below is a short list of the bullets I like:
1) Barnes Original 300 gr Spire Points
2) Fury 300 gr bonded
3) Speer Deep Curl 300 gr
4) POWERBELT PLATINUM 270 gr (these have always been the most accurate for me in the CVA rifles I have shot, with any amount of powder)
I have also heard many good reports on Hornady Bore Drivers as well (they work just like Powerbelts, where you don't need a sabot)

 

[snapbang]

Most of my experience has been with the simple round ball

From the time I was 30 til I was 60 I killed two deer a year with a PRB. Only after my eye sight required a scope did I move to inlines and started to "tinker". So far I have used the GT .429 305 grain bullet with MMP green sabot and 100 grains of powder. Very happy with them. Cheap, accurate, and effective. No losses. I do tinker with conicals but when I go deer hunting I load the 305 grain bullets with the green MMP. After gathering information from you guys ( skinner peep ). I think next year I will take a deer with my newly acquired .58 Investarms sidelock. Then get out my old 50 and kill some more deer with it. I have a skinner on both now.

 

[edmehlig]

Using pure lead and conical bullets not much difference in performance between HP and wide Flat metaplat as far as mushrooming. Personally I think the wider flat metaplat will hit harder.

 

[CatamountRob]

I’ve shot deer with T/C Maxi balls, T/C Maxi Hunters, Buffalo Bullets, Barnes Expander MZ’s, some Hornady pistol bullet and T/C Shockwaves.
The one thing all the deer had in common was they died pretty fast, most within sight of where they got shot. Every single bullet has gone through so I’ve never recovered one.

 

[snapbang]

The one thing all the deer had in common was they died pretty fast, most within sight of where they got shot. Every single bullet has gone through so I’ve never recovered one.

Ill bet you put them all right in the boiler room. Just cant beat a well placed shot.