Another perplexing ML problem

[Charlie-NY]

I returned to the club today thinking that I had everything worked out. I was just going to shoot a few 250 TMZs at 300yds with 120gr BH209 to confirm the ballistics I saw Wednesday and to see if I could duplicate the 2.8" group.

First shot out of a completely clean barrel was about 4" to the right but I expected it to be off.
Second sabot would NOT go down the bore with a maximum of effort, not even 2 inches. I had to pull the breech plug, dump the BH powder and drive the projectile out. I swabbed out the bore and tried again. First shot was on the 4" bullseye. Second TMZ would NOT go down the bore at all. I used a maximum amount of pressure on the aluminum rod but it was a no-go.
Pulled the gun apart again and started over. This time I ran a T17 patch up & down between shots. Sabots slide down and fired normally resulting in a sub 3" group at 300yds.
I'm totally confused now. Two days ago I loaded 12-15 sabots with NO swabbing between shots. Today only a single sabot would load and the next would STOP within the first inch of rifling. This happened 3x before I started swabbing between shots again.

Does anyone have any idea why this is happening?

 

[45-70]

I returned to the club today thinking that I had everything worked out. I was just going to shoot a few 250 TMZs at 300yds with 120gr BH209 to confirm the ballistics I saw Wednesday and to see if I could duplicate the 2.8" group.

First shot out of a completely clean barrel was about 4" to the right but I expected it to be off.
Second sabot would NOT go down the bore with a maximum of effort, not even 2 inches. I had to pull the breech plug, dump the BH powder and drive the projectile out. I swabbed out the bore and tried again. First shot was on the 4" bullseye. Second TMZ would NOT go down the bore at all. I used a maximum amount of pressure on the aluminum rod but it was a no-go.
Pulled the gun apart again and started over. This time I ran a T17 patch up & down between shots. Sabots slide down and fired normally resulting in a sub 3" group at 300yds.
I'm totally confused now. Two days ago I loaded 12-15 sabots with NO swabbing between shots. Today only a single sabot would load and the next would STOP within the first inch of rifling. This happened 3x before I started swabbing between shots again.

Does anyone have any idea why this is happening?

measure your sabots and bullets

 

[toytruck]

Did you use an alcohol patch to wipe out any excess oils in the barrel before loading. Alcohol will dry itself, but I also use a completely dry/clean patch after to be sure. Then load the BH209 and saboted bullet. I use either a crushrib or smooth saboted 300 gr. XTP over 90 gr. Volume BH209 in the CVA Optima V2.

Only use products to clean/dissolve/oil for smokeless powder when using blackhorn. If you continue to use T17 that's your problem. Again no swabbing between shots...

 

[Charlie-NY]

Did you use an alcohol patch to wipe out any excess oils in the barrel before loading. Alcohol will dry itself, but I also use a completely dry/clean patch after to be sure. Then load the BH209 and saboted bullet. I use either a crushrib or smooth saboted 300 gr. XTP over 90 gr. Volume BH209 in the CVA Optima V2.

Only use products to clean/dissolve/oil for smokeless powder when using blackhorn. If you continue to use T17 that's your problem. Again no swabbing between shots...

Cleaned barrel with Balistol followed by some Blackhorn cleaner. Finished with dry patches. I wouldn't have swabbed between shots but it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a second sabot down the barrel. The sabot wouldn't go down the barrel 1" past the unrifled part of the barrel. I applied considerable force to the aluminum rod without success. ?????????????????

 

[D55]

Maybe switch sabots ie Harvester crushribbed or maybe mmp

 

[toytruck]

Cleaned barrel with Balistol followed by some Blackhorn cleaner. Finished with dry patches. I wouldn't have swabbed between shots but it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a second sabot down the barrel. The sabot wouldn't go down the barrel 1" past the unrifled part of the barrel. I applied considerable force to the aluminum rod without success. ?????????????????

Like D55 suggests maybe change sabots, something is not right. I assume you have a false muzzle (QLA T/C calls it) which normally doesn't effect a sabot. I had a Encore once, couldn't get it to shoot to my liking, sold it.
Is there a gunsmith that knows muzzleloaders close by that you can get some advise from or look at you rifle?

 

[dbowling]

If your shooting same bullets/sabots you were when you shot the 2.5 in group and you had zero problems then there is no reason for you to have trouble now. If you keep changing your routine loading/swabbing etc then you will never figure anything out. You had it working so you should use the same exact procedure to duplicate your results before, change anything and your chasing your tail again.. once you find something that works that good stick with it.

 

[Lee 9]

One off the things that can cause your problem is what you put in the barrel after you are done shooting.
You should use a smokeless cleaner and synthetic gun oil. putting regular black powder cleaner in with BH 209 will gum up.

 

[Charlie-NY]

If your shooting same bullets/sabots you were when you shot the 2.5 in group and you had zero problems then there is no reason for you to have trouble now. If you keep changing your routine loading/swabbing etc then you will never figure anything out. You had it working so you should use the same exact procedure to duplicate your results before, change anything and your chasing your tail again.. once you find something that works that good stick with it.

This is what makes the problem so confusing. I tried to repeat everything from the prior shooting session. I started with a clean bore, used all the same components and didn't swab between shots. I didn't run anything down the bore until after it became impossible to get a sabot/bullet down the bore. It was essentially "one and done" as far as reloading the ML. Swabbing only allowed a single reload and then the next one get stuck just past the QLA.
The only thing that I can think of that was different was that I was using a new box of TMZs that I just received. It doesn't seem like that could do it but who knows.
Just for the heck of it I tried to load some old 295gr PowerBelts that have been in my ML box for years. Every one one of them slid down easily.

 

[toytruck]

What size are the TMZ bullet's? I'm not familiar with them. Encores usually have a tight bore.

Looked them up supposed to be .451 diameter. I personally have not used them. I would still try the crushrib or smooth sabots in that size.

 

[HC]

Remove the spent primer, will make loading easier.

 

[Charlie-NY]

What size are the TMZ bullet's? I'm not familiar with them. Encores usually have a tight bore.

Looked them up supposed to be .451 diameter. I personally have not used them. I would still try the crushrib or smooth sabots in that size.

I measured 3 different sabots today. Here is what I get while applying light pressure to the caliper jaws:

T/C Shockwave = .5045
Nosler 300gr BT = .5045
Barnes 250 TMZ - .506

How much smaller in diameter are the Barnes TEZ sabots?

 

[Charlie-NY]

Remove the spent primer, will make loading easier.

I always pull the spent 209 primer after shooting and before reloading. I also let the barrel cool for a few minutes before starting the reload process again.

 

[ENCORE50A]

 

[sabotloader]

I measured 3 different sabots today. Here is what I get while applying light pressure to the caliper jaws:

T/C Shockwave = .5045
Nosler 300gr BY = .5045
Barnes 250 TMZ - .506

How much smaller in diameter are the Barnes TEZ sabots?

IF I remember correctly the regular Barnes sabot is contracted from MMP and is a MMP HPH-12 sabot and the T EZ is an MMP HPH-24 sabot which is thinner than the regular sabot. MMP also has another sabot that is thinner yet the HPH-6-3PEZ

This is an old chart but it will give some ideals

 

[45-70]

I measured 3 different sabots today. Here is what I get while applying light pressure to the caliper jaws:

T/C Shockwave = .5045
Nosler 300gr BY = .5045
Barnes 250 TMZ - .506

How much smaller in diameter are the Barnes TEZ sabots?

need to measure the bullet

 

[sabotloader]

Barnes says they are 0.451

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I’ve never used Ballistol, I think others have with BH209, maybe they will chime in. You could try something like Hoppes no. 9 bore solvent, maybe it would work better for you.

What BlackHorn cleaner are you using?

After cleaning your bore (after the 3 inch group at 300) from the previous range trip, did you use JB bore paste again? Maybe you should if you didn’t.

 

[user 20307]

Had the very same problem a couple of years ago. Turned out to be a bad lot of sabots. MMP sent new ones. This prompted me to ensure bullet diameter and bullet/sabot dimensions. Also prompted me to buy larger quantities and same lots. Sabots are cast in dies that will put out smaller diameter sabots as the die gets used, so lots may vary. Bullets varied as well, some said on the box .452 but when measured were .4515.

 

[Charlie-NY]

I’ve never used Ballistol, I think others have with BH209, maybe they will chime in. You could try something like Hoppes no. 9 bore solvent, maybe it would work better for you.

What BlackHorn cleaner are you using?

After cleaning your bore (after the 3 inch group at 300) from the previous range trip, did you use JB bore paste again? Maybe you should if you didn’t.

Here's how I have been cleaning:

I yank the breechplug - run the 1/8" drill bit in by hand and then drop it into a bottle of Hoppes
I use a 20ga plastic brush wrapped in a paper towel and wet it with Balistol. I run it through & back
I put a clean paper towel on the brush and repeat above several times
Then I do the same using Blackhorn cleaning solvent followed by a patch of CLP
Lastly I run a tight, dry patch down and back
I clean the breech plug with Q-tips and blow out with a compressor
Lightly coat exterior with CLP and reassemble

However, this morning I tried something a little different. After my regular cleaning routine I decided to run a new 50cal bronze brush from breech to muzzle and back about a dozen times. I followed this with my 20ga plastic brush wrapped in a paper towel. It came out BLACK!

Hmmmmmmmmm