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Anticipated grouping and accuracy with a White muzzleloader

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idahoron

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Jan 15, 2013
Messages
545
While NoExcuses shot much better out of my White's than White's Power Punches, like you I found they weigh anywhere from 7-10gr difference in a box. That's why I got started casting my own. This way I can ensure they weigh less than 1gr difference and get the most out of accuracy with my rifles. Most times I weigh my charges to squeeze that last bit of accuracy out of them.
When I go hunting I always weigh up my powder with a scale. my 80 gr of Pyrodex P needs to weigh 64.5 grains on a scale.
I helped a guy get a rifle up and going with my bullets. He wasn't seeing the same marks on his sight I did. and the accuracy was a bit off. When I asked him to weigh up a charge his 80 gr by volume was 57 actual grains. When he got it to 64.5 everything fell into place.
I have shot a lot of No Excuse and they are pretty accurate for a factory bullet. I even took off the lube and paper patched them. They did just fine. If the owner were to do some quality control I am sure he could jack up his price.
 

Idaholewis

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Jun 30, 2017
Messages
5,577
I'm not bashing No excuse bullets. I actually recommend them to a lot of guys. But the fact is he is not weighing them for quality control. I have seen as much as 10 grains difference in a box of bullets. The guys that I have told about them buy them then weigh them.
I have shot a lot of 1" groups with muzzleloaders. Both traditional and inline. The fact is with peep sights or open sights sub 3" is not really that bad. Especially if a guy is shooting OTC bullets.
I was sent several No Excuse 50 Cal Bullets by 2 different forum Members here to do a Lead Hardness test on them, After one of them Failed a Bullet Test here MISERABLY. I found Wheel Weight Hard Lead Mixed with Soft Lead. I even did a Video on it, How to easily Spot Hard Lead Bullets Without the need of a Tester. Anybody that knows ANYTHING about this Stuff Would know that’s a BIG NO NO! I do believe the owner of No Excuses Made it right with a Few people here after that, And that was good of him for sure!! (The owner of No Excuses Bullets is a member here on the Forum) I would also Bet that I wasn’t his Favorite person after that Test/Video :D But I’m ok with that, I was honest, as i always am :lewis:
 

sdporter

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Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Messages
1,164
Thanks for the information. I tried a 50 cal wad in my whitetail and it did not help, I will try a 54 cal wad and see how things go. I think going with a larger diameter bullet may be the vital thing for my whitetail. I am excited to shoot the new Bison this Friday. I cut away the stock and added a peep sight to it last night. Waiting for my scope mounts to come in and will get that started on getting that set up option going. Man if I can get groups like what edmehlig and sdporter are getting I will be delighted!

So building your own mold, do you mean you built it or had it build to your specs? Must say, that is beyond my ability. I am intrigued with maybe pouring my own...gee I hear more $$$ going out the window!

Sdporter I am from Monticello. Grew up on a farm near Colorado, went to elementary school in Dove Creek CO, then mom moved to town so we could go to high school there.
A company I used to work for actually did the AC on the jail in Monticello. They were finishing up as I got started with them, so I didn’t get to go out there.
Yes I build my own moulds. It’s really not too hard if you have the right tools. Time consuming but, worth the time.
My grandfather lived out in Blanding for a stretch when old Posey was running around. He was part of a posse that brought him to justice, if memory serves me correctly, that happened in Monticello. O.M. Porter was his name.
 

sdporter

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Sep 19, 2017
Messages
1,164
You know, one thing @Idaholewis has proven, and he did it with one of my bullets so I know, bullet lube can play a big part in accuracy. If they started shooting worse with the blue lube, that might also be a factor. It sounds almost like your bore may be too large for the bullets you’re shooting. Try swabbing between shots and shoot some Teflon tape coated bullets, or knurl them up, see if that changes anything. If it does, your bore is probably like mine, about .507-.508
 
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idahoron

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Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
545
I was sent several No Excuse 50 Cal Bullets by 2 different forum Members here to do a Lead Hardness test on them, After one of them Failed a Bullet Test here MISERABLY.
What was the test you ran?

I checked my records and I don't have a hardness test written down for them. I got my tester sometime in 2008. So I either shot them before 2008 or I just didn't write it down. I'm thinking it was before but I can't remember.
 

Idaholewis

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Jun 30, 2017
Messages
5,577
What was the test you ran?

I checked my records and I don't have a hardness test written down for them. I got my tester sometime in 2008. So I either shot them before 2008 or I just didn't write it down. I'm thinking it was before but I can't remember.
Ron, They came in at like 71 on my Dial :oops: That was April of 2019, Here is the Thread i started on it back then. No Excuses owner “Bullet Business” joined in, He offered to make it right, Which was Good on him.

 

idahoron

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Jan 15, 2013
Messages
545
I didn't see that thread when it came out. That was an interesting thread.
I have been away from the forums for a while. My job at the trout company came to an end in 2019. The end started in January with a fall from a ladder and finished in July with my retirement and then obtaining a new job digging graves before I could start enjoying the retirement.

Your findings on that thread with the harder lead not smearing are spot on. I found the same thing back when I started using reclaimed lead shot to alloy my Lee 500 S&W bullets. I began hardening to .035-.038 back in 2008. I have allowed that to increase to .035-.042 That increase in hardness improved weight retention on game and improved accuracy in the Green Mountain barrels. The bullet I found in my bull this year only lost 4 grains even after going through the shoulder and breaking the spine.

As you know increasing the hardness is tough unless you use an exact amount of pure then add the tin. The method I use with the reclaimed lead shot is tougher I think because the antimony. It doesn't take much to mess up a batch of expensive lead.

Then you have the whole thing with adding hardness and then the bullets age harden.

Going back on my records was fun. I write everything down or I should say try to write everything down. I ordered my first set of Lee 500 S&W moulds on 11-30-2007
I ordered "pure" lead from ebay on 1-12-08. Those bullets didn't shoot well and I had lots of problems. I ended up getting my Cabine Tree tester in 2008 because of the wrong turns I was taking with casting and paper patching. That lead from Ebay was .088 or 22BHN. Those bastards were hard.

I did find the info I had on No Excuse bullets. I was at .023 or in the middle of 5BHN. I also found that Whites Power Punch was at .027 the middle of 5BHN. So that test was probably in 2008 from batches of bullets I bought in 2007?
 

Icerman

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2019
Messages
12
You know, one thing @Idaholewis has proven, and he did it with one of my bullets so I know, bullet lube can play a big part in accuracy. If they started shooting worse with the blue lube, that might also be a factor. It sounds almost like your bore may be too large for the bullets you’re shooting. Try swabbing between shots and shoot some Teflon tape coated bullets, or knurl them up, see if that changes anything. If it does, your bore is probably like mine, about .507-.508
That is interesting how the lube can change things. When I initially started using the no excuses bullets they grouped well and the lube was kind of a clear-yellowish color. When I started having issues with accuracy, I noticed that the lube was a bluish color. I don't know how that would make a difference but it may be part of the problem!? What lubes do you recommend? Educate me more about teflon tape on the bullets, how many wraps? Does it coat your bullets? How do you knurl the bullets without disrupting the roundness?
 

toytruck

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Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
2,644
One wrap only on the conical with white plumber tape, just to cover the grooves. Not needed on top or base of bullet.
Just for first shot only on clean bore.

Don't do the other stuff so can't comment.
 

edmehlig

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May 19, 2005
Messages
2,426
As far as live if you are not going to make your own, I would purchase either Bullshop Green NASA lube or SPF lube.
 

sdporter

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Sep 19, 2017
Messages
1,164
That is interesting how the lube can change things. When I initially started using the no excuses bullets they grouped well and the lube was kind of a clear-yellowish color. When I started having issues with accuracy, I noticed that the lube was a bluish color. I don't know how that would make a difference but it may be part of the problem!? What lubes do you recommend? Educate me more about teflon tape on the bullets, how many wraps? Does it coat your bullets? How do you knurl the bullets without disrupting the roundness?
I make a cross and set the bullet in the middle of it, then pull the sides up to the nose. Sort of a Teflon tape sabot. I have never knurled bullets so I can’t answer that. I can send you some .507 bullets though if you’d like to test them. I firmly believe that your bore is oversized. I have at least two Whites that are.
 

sdporter

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Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Messages
1,164
That is interesting how the lube can change things. When I initially started using the no excuses bullets they grouped well and the lube was kind of a clear-yellowish color. When I started having issues with accuracy, I noticed that the lube was a bluish color. I don't know how that would make a difference but it may be part of the problem!? What lubes do you recommend? Educate me more about teflon tape on the bullets, how many wraps? Does it coat your bullets? How do you knurl the bullets without disrupting the roundness?
I make my own lube, here’s the recipe:
1/4 lbs beeswax
4-Tbs Crisco (white)
1-Tbs castor oil
1-Tbs mineral oil
1-Tbs Lanolin.
I add a little red food coloring, and eventually it looks like this: about the consistency of Chapstick when it’s warm (above 70 deg)
I pan lube the bullets in a stainless spit tray from the hospital. I set the bullets in base down, pour the melted lube in through a funnel so it doesn’t get all over the noses, let it skin over, then put in the fridge for 10 minutes, then I push the bullets outta the brick and run them through the sizer. P.M me your address and I’ll gladly send you a few larger bullets. I have a .505 and .507 die. Just pay the shipping. This bullet shot very well for me. I think I also sent it to @Idaholewis to test. I don’t remember the exact bullet I sent, but whichever it was, (I think it was this one) it did well for him too.
Side note, not sure what Lewis lubed them with, but I sent them as cast.
 

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sdporter

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Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Messages
1,164
Here’s that video:
I didn’t get quite as good as Lewis’s s did in my test, but I was shooting it at about 80 yards and was still under an inch. I didn’t video it so you’ll have to just take my word for it.
 

Icerman

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2019
Messages
12
Thank you
I make my own lube, here’s the recipe:
1/4 lbs beeswax
4-Tbs Crisco (white)
1-Tbs castor oil
1-Tbs mineral oil
1-Tbs Lanolin.
I add a little red food coloring, and eventually it looks like this: about the consistency of Chapstick when it’s warm (above 70 deg)
I pan lube the bullets in a stainless spit tray from the hospital. I set the bullets in base down, pour the melted lube in through a funnel so it doesn’t get all over the noses, let it skin over, then put in the fridge for 10 minutes, then I push the bullets outta the brick and run them through the sizer. P.M me your address and I’ll gladly send you a few larger bullets. I have a .505 and .507 die. Just pay the shipping. This bullet shot very well for me. I think I also sent it to @Idaholewis to test. I don’t remember the exact bullet I sent, but whichever it was, (I think it was this one) it did well for him too.
Side note, not sure what Lewis lubed them with, but I sent them as cast.
Thank you for the info. I do not know how to do a PM, you'll have to educate me on that. The video after this post shows some AWESOME shooting! WOW, I am impressed!
 

sdporter

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Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Messages
1,164
Thank you

Thank you for the info. I do not know how to do a PM, you'll have to educate me on that. The video after this post shows some AWESOME shooting! WOW, I am impressed!
Yeah, that’s Lewis for ya. He can shoot.
 

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