So even though western powders don’t recommend shooting lead conicals you say it’s ok ?
Even though western powders says not to use Blackhorn with bullets over 300 gr you say the 420 gr is ok ?
Even though severe leading can occur you say 90 gr powder without a wad is ok?
All I can say is OK then.
So when the leaded barrel occurs, or the misfires, or the high pressure curve and something happens is it the powders fault , the bullets fault , your fault for the recommendation, the shooters fault for believing the recommendations found on the forum from the experts? Or no ones fault
Who says Western doesn't recommend shooting lead conicals, bedsides you? If you are talking about FAQ #18 (see below), that was written before Blackhorn 209 was released in April 2008. Things have changed since then, but the FAQ's were never updated.
"
18. Can I use Conical bullets with Blackhorn 209?
In many cases conical bullets may work fine. However, results vary depending on the many factors so we cannot recommend conical bullets. However, many shooters have reported good results with Hornady FPB and Thor bullets."
I discussed this way back in April 2008 with Don Luhr in the Ballistics Lab at Western Powders, and have been shooting 430 & 440 grain Lead Conicals ever since. They hadn't done an extensive amount of conical testing at that time. However it has been established and well documented that Blackhorn 209 does not generate any higher pressures than Triple Se7en loose powder on a Volume to Volume comparison, and significantly less than Triple Se7en Pellets. Here is what I wrote on July 3, 2008. I called them before that, in April 2008. Post #7 below. This was also before the 444 grain PowerBelt was added to the load data sheet, and the 350 grain FPB was the heaviest bullet published at that time. Not the heaviest bullet they or I had tested.
"Jul 3, 2008
#7
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Busta
Well-Known Member
DocBob said:
Chuck,
Thanks for the reply...label claims are always more conservative than practical...do you know of any range test data for the larger all lead full diameter 50 cal conicals? I'd like to see some info on this as this powder sounds great otherwise.
Us western ML hunters have a serious lack of data to work with as it seems everyone tests with light weight sabots to get those last few FPS.
- DocBob,
It states "Bullets over 350 grains are not recommended."
I called Western and talked to a guy in the lab, he stated that BH209 does not generate pressures any higher than 777. The reason they put that statement on the container is that they had not done any extensive testing with bullets over 350 grains. I have done some shooting with the 350 grain Hornady FPB (80 grains BH209) and a 440 grain White Power Punch (70 grains BH209) just last weekend in my NEF using the Hubbard's breech plug with excellent results. You do need a good breech plug to pull it off though, my previous testing with standard orange primer carriers was inconsistant at best. As a matter of fact, the conical groups were better than the sabot loads. I will do more conical testing before the fall in my Knight.
Jul 3, 2008Report
+ QuoteReply
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/caution-blackhorn-209-not-for-elk.9407/#post-73432
Here is the range report with a Ben Hubbard breech plug in a Huntsman. ScumBucket blurred all the pics, see graybeard link below it for pics.
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/...ug-blackhorn-209-range-repor.9367/#post-73145
https://www.go2gbo.com/forums/113-h...9-breech-plug-blackhorn-209-range-report.html
They don't recommend shooting over 300 grain saboted bullets, but have conical loads up to 444 grains listed on their load data since mid 2008.
You can shoot up to a 444 gr. Powerbelt Flat Point with Blackhorn 209, per Western Powders in their load data.
80 VOLUMETRIC grains @ 1,428 FPS
100 VOLUMETRIC grains @ 1,597 FPS
120 VOLUMETRIC Grains is Not Recommended.
https://www.blackhorn209.com/load-data/
Maybe you should call Western Powders and talk to someone in the lab before you jump to conclusions?
If you haven't noticed, Western has never published ANY Load Data for .45 calibers, yet we know they were involved in the Paramount Recommended Loads. Nor have they ever published any Remington Ultimate loads, even though they have established recommended loads that exceed the limits of other production rifles.
The only place it could possibly meet some scrutiny, is with CVA. As of 2011 they did not recommend using over 400 grain lead conicals. Yet, you can shoot ALL weights of PowerBelt bullets, and there are 405 and 444 grain bullets that I know of. That may have possibly changed over the last 8 years?
"
PURE LEAD SERIES - THE BULLET THAT MADE THE SABOT OBSOLETE
The original PowerBelt Bullet was the Pure Lead, and it’s still a great choice for the economy-minded shooter, whether for hunting or just target shooting. Available in four different grain weights (295, 348, 405 and 444) and two different tip designs.
PowerBelt Pure Lead bullets will get the job done with authority. And in states where copper-plated bullets are not allowed, PowerBelt Pure Leads are the highest tech, best performing bullets you can shoot – and still be legal!"
https://www.powerbeltbullets.com/Pure-Lead-Muzzleloading-Bullets.php
"
COPPER SERIES - THE BULLET THAT MADE THE SABOT OBSOLETE
Our copper-plated PowerBelts have become the most popular muzzleloading projectiles since the roundball and truly are “the bullets that made sabots obsolete.” They are #1 for a reason, and if you don’t believe us, ask any hunter who has shot them. The thin copper plating greatly reduces bore friction for higher velocities – while still allowing for optimal bullet expansion within the rifling grooves.
Available in three tip designs – AeroTip, Hollow Point and Flat Point – PowerBelt Coppers offer the widest variety of grain weights in the PowerBelt line-up, with several different weights from 175 grains all the way up to 444 grains. With PowerBelt Copper Series bullets you’ll find the right combination for whatever game you’re chasing."
https://www.powerbeltbullets.com/Copper-Muzzleloading-Bullets.php
Here are two CVA/PowerBelt Ballistic Charts specifically for using Blackhorn 209. 444 Grain Bullets with 100 Volumetric Grains of Blackhorn 209 at bottom of charts.
https://www.powerbeltbullets.com/Blackhorn209-powder-zeroed-at-100yards.php
https://www.powerbeltbullets.com/Blackhorn209-powder-zeroed-at-150yards.php
They have Ballistic Charts for White Hots, Pyrodex, Triple Se7en, and Blackhorn 209. Just click on your powder type in this link.
https://www.powerbeltbullets.com/Ballistics.php
Just my 2 cents. CVA sells PowerBelts, not all lead conicals. If you can shoot up to a 444 grain Pure Lead or Copper PowerBelts plus whatever the skirt weighs, then why not another lead conical under 444 grains with or without a wad??? Both Western Powders and CVA/PowerBelt have published recommended loads for 444 grain bullets with up to 100 Volumetric Grain charges of Blackhorn 209. I'm a big boy and can read between the lines. 80 VOLUMETRIC grains of Blackhorn 209 under a 430 or 440 (or 420) grain lead conical and a veggie wad will absolutely slobbernock a bull elk, or any deer.
I did some extensive Blackhorn 209 Testing starting in April 2008 through 2009 and into 2010. From one end of the spectrum to the other. Some of it was documented here and a few other places. I'm sure you must have seen the time /pressure curve overlay of the Blackhorn 209, Triple Se7en, and other powders? I got to see the equipment that made those traces in action, and a few other things over 10 years ago.
In March 2009 I spent 3 days with the guys (Head of Blastics Lab - Don Luhr; Head Ballistician - Keith Anderson; Accurate Ballistician - Johan Loubser) in Western Powders Ballistics Lab. Met the owner and President Doug Phair, General Manager Shawn Kelly (and again 10 years later at the NRA in Indy, April 2019) and the rest of the crew at Western Powders. Great bunch of guys and gals, with tons of knowledge and experience. The kind of people you don't forget!
