Article about Savage 10ML II - Think outside the box.

[Danny Ross]

I keep seeing threads about the Savage 10 ML II, and how it is - or was - the only production muzzle loader in which it is safe to use smokeless powders. Then I read about them blowing up, and how Savage discontinued them.

I found this article, which seems to be by a writer who has done a lot of experimenting with the rifle:

https://gunblast.com/Savage-10MLII.htm

It has a good picture of the bolt head holding a 209 primer.

Question: Why would anyone use a shotgun primer in an inline muzzle loader, especially one designed to use smokeless propellants? I cannot find any load data for a shotgun cartridge that has a pressure in excess of 12,600 psi. 9mm Luger cartridges are rated at about 35,000 psi. The .45 ACP is rated around 20,000 psi. The .32 ACP is rated at around 23,000 psi. The 38 Special is rated around 17,000 psi. (it was originally a black powder cartridge). The .32 H&R Magnum is rated at 21,000 psi. Use a cartridge to house your primer and a weak spot in the chain is eliminated, and so is the necessity of a flash hole in the breech plug. You essentially get a new flash hole with every cartridge.

Another question: Why design a muzzle loader that uses a bolt action? The bolt action was designed so multiple cartridges could be fired serially. A muzzle loader is inherently single shot. Your propellant and projectile are loaded separate from your primer. The bolt action is just an unnecessary complication.

 

[Danny Ross]

Another article about the Savage 10 MLII, this one specifically about why the Model 10 fails. The author attributes the failures to a poorly designed breech plug.

http://www.namlhunt.com/ml-warnings-notices-news.html

 

[GM54-120]

Good luck without using a flash hole and just a shell case....i await your findings. Many of us switched to using a tungsten carbide bushing instead of a vent liner. Even the module systems use a bushing. I guess you missed those?

Tell me, how would you mount a scope without adding holes to the barrel using a break action?

What has won more times in the Friendship inline matches? Bolt or break action?

If a kaboom happens....whats closer to your face?.....the barrel on a bolt action or a break action.....Ever seen what a break action looks like when it comes apart?

What platform is the most flexible through aftermarket parts and upgrades? Nearly every upgrade that fits a Rem700 also fits a Rem Ult ML.

What is the max barrel OD of the largest break action?....Rem700 is over 1.2" and the MLII large shank is over 1.1". You can even go larger by going nutless.

As far as weight, my NULA is around 7lbs ready to hunt. About 5lbs bare. Knight UL is around 6lbs bare.....Weight does not seem to be a huge deal vs a break action. Only some added length. Bolt guns can be made as light and all steel. Every break action ML still made today is an alloy frame excluding the Encore platform that is not a dedicated ML.

 

[GM54-120]

Another article about the Savage 10 MLII, this one specifically about why the Model 10 fails. The author attributes the failures to a poorly designed breech plug.

http://www.namlhunt.com/ml-warnings-notices-news.html

Oddly the breach plug did not fail though. Its still in the barrel shank. How can you attribute a barrel failure to a breach plug if the plug is still in place? Its obvious the rupture did not start at the plug. It started further down the barrel.

I guess he fails to mention the numerous hot loads of lil Gun he claims he fired with sub bases in other articles. Sub bases were always a no no but he used them to exceed load data. Ive seen his articles on it.

How many "experimental" loads do you think TB's barrel saw before coming apart?

 

[Danny Ross]

Good luck without using a flash hole and just a shell case....i await your findings. Many of us switched to using a tungsten carbide bushing instead of a vent liner. Even the module systems use a bushing. I guess you missed those?

Tell me, how would you mount a scope without adding holes to the barrel using a break action?

What has won more times in the Friendship inline matches? Bolt or break action?

If a kaboom happens....whats closer to your face?.....the barrel on a bolt action or a break action.....Ever seen what a break action looks like when it comes apart?

What platform is the most flexible through aftermarket parts and upgrades? Nearly every upgrade that fits a Rem700 also fits a Rem Ult ML.

What is the max barrel OD of the largest break action?....Rem700 is over 1.2" and the MLII large shank is over 1.1". You can even go larger by going nutless.

As far as weight, my NULA is around 7lbs ready to hunt. About 5lbs bare. Knight UL is around 6lbs bare.....Weight does not seem to be a huge deal vs a break action. Only some added length. Bolt guns can be made as light and all steel. Every break action ML still made today is an alloy frame excluding the Encore platform that is not a dedicated ML.

 

[Danny Ross]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...break-action-inlines-using-cartridges.846989/

My experimentation with breech plugs for break action inline muzzleloaders using cartridges was triggered by articles about conversions of factory breech plugs to use .25 ACP cartridges or Variflame adapters in place of #209 shotgun primers, on the theory that less powerful primers give better accuracy.

My reasoning was that, if one were to use a primed cartridge case to set off a muzzle loader charge, why alter a factory breech plug to accept a cartridge case? Why not build a breech plug around a cartridge case from scratch? To answer the objections of so-called traditionalists, Harry Pope was building rifles this way in the late 1800's.

To this end, I began examining the factory plugs. I found that CVA break actions, both the older recessed breech plugs and the newer Quick Release types, and Rossi Muzzle Loaders, all use a breech plug with a 5/8 - 18 basis. Searching on line I found that Home Depot sells a line of Crown Bolts, Grade 8, that are 5/8", 18 threads per inch.

So far, I have built proof-of-concept breech plugs for both the older and newer CVA's and the Rossi, in .32 ACP, .38 Special, 9mm Luger and 5.56 NATO (cut off to 1') primed cases, and they have all functioned well with loose Black MZ.

I will be posting pictures of my breech plugs when I get around to taking some, and providing information about ballistics as I assemble it. Right now, I am at the "well, it does go BANG!" stage.

 

[Danny Ross]

Oddly the breach plug did not fail though. Its still in the barrel shank. How can you attribute a barrel failure to a breach plug if the plug is still in place? Its obvious the rupture did not start at the plug. It started further down the barrel.

I guess he fails to mention the numerous hot loads of lil Gun he claims he fired with sub bases in other articles. Sub bases were always a no no but he used them to exceed load data. Ive seen his articles on it.

How many "experimental" loads do you think TB's barrel saw before coming apart?

It seems you did not read the article. The author explains how the poorly designed breech plug causes the failure.

 

[Danny Ross]

Tell me, how would you mount a scope without adding holes to the barrel using a break action?

All the break actions I own already have threaded holes for mounting scopes.

On of my pet peeves is that most of my pawn shop muzzle loaders come with a scope mount and/or a scope, and the open sights have been removed.

 

[GM54-120]

You are not correct. Ive seen his line of BS before that link was ever posted. Its obvious the barrel failed. Its obvious he has used loads over 60gr of lil Gun and sub bases around 2002 and later. Its obvious he did not mention them in that link...ask yourself why he didnt mention his use of Lil Gun in large quantities?

 

[Danny Ross]

This is an interesting youtube video of a crazy guy trying to test a found .410 break action shotgun to destruction. It ain't easy.



I found a video of some guy demonstrating that it is dangerous to use smokeless powder in a ML. He blows up a Knight, a CVA and a TC. THEN, later, the momser tells you how he manages to convert 3 nice rifles to junk: he loaded them with 120 grains of HS-6 pistol/shotgun powder, when a reasonable load in a .44 Remington Magnum pistol cartridge is 12 to 17 grains. DUH! If you overload any firearm by a factor of 6-10 times, it is likely to blow up!

 

[Danny Ross]

Oddly the breach plug did not fail though. Its still in the barrel shank. How can you attribute a barrel failure to a breach plug if the plug is still in place? Its obvious the rupture did not start at the plug. It started further down the barrel.

I guess he fails to mention the numerous hot loads of lil Gun he claims he fired with sub bases in other articles. Sub bases were always a no no but he used them to exceed load data. Ive seen his articles on it.

How many "experimental" loads do you think TB's barrel saw before coming apart?

From the article:
Before sending the rifle back to Savage ... I first spent an afternoon with two good friends, with engineering degrees, and who worked with high pressure equipment. We did not disassemble the blown rifle, but I had taken along another stainless steel Model 10 MLII ... which also had about 2,000 rounds fired through it. We disassembled the rifle ... and as soon as the breech plug was removed ... one of the engineers commented on its extremely poor design ... with no threads on the front half of the plug. Around that unthreaded "snout" was a slight airspace. To seal off those 40,000 p.s.i. smokeless charge pressures relied totally on the the threads at the rear of the plug being able to form a high pressure seal between the forward shoulder of the breech plug and the corresponding surface at the rear of the barrel.

Upon closer magnified examination of that sealing shoulder of the breech plug we discovered the gas cutting seen in the photo above left. That high smokeless powder pressure was escaping back into that air space surrounding the unthreaded front portion of the plug. That evening, I pulled the plugs on four other Model 10 MLII rifles ... and found the same gas cutting. One of those plugs came from a rifle that had close to 5,000 rounds fired through it ... but I had installed a new breech plug a couple of months earlier, and had fired only about 400 shots with the new plug installed. Still, the sealing shoulder of that breech plug was as eroded as the plug shown above left. I took that rifle to another friend's machine shop. We removed the barrel from the receiver ... then machined away the recess for the breech plug ... to be able to examine the shoulder at the rear of the bore ... and found the same degree of gas cutting.

Once compromised by such gas cutting, the breeching of the Savage Model 10 MLII is incapable of containing those high 40,000+ p.s.i. pressures created by charges of smokeless powders like Accurate 5744 ... IMR SR4759 ... IMR 4227! If you own and shoot one of these rifles ... still using smokeless powders ... it's a time bomb - and it's not even ticking. One shot can be fine, putting the bullet right on the target ... and the very next can turn your rifle into the disaster shown above and below ... and if you are gripping the forearm with one hand ... it could be just as mangled!

This is not the rifle in which he fired the Lil Gun loads.

 

[Okie Hog]

Yep, Toby Bridges worked for Savage in a minor role. After Savage canned Toby Bridges a Savage muzzleloader fired by Bridges blew up. By some accounts Bridges attempted to blackmail Savage.

http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm

Toby Bridges has been fired by Savage and several other muzzleloader related companies. He was let go by Pedersoli after crusading against big game hunting with patched round balls.

i spent 50 years doing blowemup stuff as a US Army EOD troop and a civilian UXO tech/consultant. Conducted experiments using muzzleloaders and pipe bombs. i've seen photos of all the blown up Savage muzzleloaders. IMO: All were destroyed with something other than a normal charge. At least one blew up because the shooter failed to seat the sabot/bullet.

 

[GM54-120]

Yep gas cutting can occur. Guys were building 45cals using the Savage plug for years and not a single one failed because of the plug...NOT ONE and most of those loads were hotter than MLII load data. Toby's theory is pure BS to extort Savage and the Balls. While i agree full length threads and a rear sealing plug are better, its NOT what caused those barrels to fail. All those plugs are still in the barrels. The rupture did not occur at the plugs.

And you know this how exactly? Do you really think if the failure was his fault at a public range he would have admitted it?....NOT LIKELY

This is not the rifle in which he fired the Lil Gun loads

.

 

[GM54-120]

Yep, Toby Bridges worked for Savage in a minor role. After Savage canned Toby Bridges a Savage muzzleloader fired by Bridges blew up. By some accounts Bridges attempted to blackmail Savage.

http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm

Toby Bridges has been fired by Savage and several other muzzleloader related companies. He was let go by Pedersoli after crusading against big game hunting with patched round balls.

i spent 50 years doing blowemup stuff as a US Army EOD troop and a civilian UXO tech/consultant. Conducted experiments using muzzleloaders and pipe bombs. i've seen photos of all the blown up Savage muzzleloaders. IMO: All were destroyed with something other than a normal charge. At least one blew up because the shooter failed to seat the sabot/bullet.

Its funny because not one of the powders listed in that article when loaded per Savage data makes 40kpsi. Sabots start to fail after about 35kpsi-38kpsi. 5744 would get the highest with a 300gr bullet but none of them would be anywhere near 40kpsi with a 250gr. N110 can spike pretty high and its murder on sabots with hot "book" loads. That N110 data is now reduced on the Savage website and only for a 250gr.

 

[GM54-120]

I cant imagine why you would want to go backwards by using a primed case. Its been tried for many many years. It has many weaknesses. There have been several variations of them and not one holds a candle to these LRMP modules. A carbide bushing with a .035 hole is used to keep powder from falling through and to limit peak pressure on the module.

These seal exceptional well and with the right plug can handle loads making over 50kpsi.

 

[GM54-120]

Here is another style that people are using. Its called direct ignition. There is no flash hole to wear out. Not sure i would want to screw these in using real black or subs. Sofar they have been just fine with smokeless loads.

 

[richie332]

Not a problem? You are screwing them in before adding the powder charge?
They are the best, most reliable ignition system for a muzzle loader..........I happen to use them for smokeless operation. 3,000 fps with 300 gr. bullets and mine have over a hundred repriming on them and they are as tight as a clam in winter!