BH 209 - No need to clean? Explanation?

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Anyone of those shots in your pic would have resulted in a dead deer.....Shoot more and over think less....Just go out and enjoy some range time.
 
RoJo..………. I'd like to make a suggestion if that's ok...…..

I'd like to suggest that with the combo you shot the group with in the photo that you just posted, that you settle on it and just shoot more.

It appears that you're trying to obtain knowledge, maybe at to fast a pace. Not being critical of your wanting to learn. Those of us who have been at this for years, even many decades, still learn. We learn from others, trials, from our own and/or other's mistakes. It never ends. And what may work for one, might not for another.
Don't put yourself in a task saturation position, it'll come to you.

Throw that first shot out and the next 5 gave you a great group. :thumb:
 
110 grains BH209 + 250 grain TEZ + Harvester smooth black sabot + Winchester 209 primer = full freezer :D
I shot most of what you posted here last Friday except 100 gr. (by volume) and had CCI 209M primers. My tubes are loaded to try 110 gr. this week with another box of TEZ 250's and the smooth Harvester. I kept track of the good advice you gave me before. Grateful for your help.
 
I have the utmost respect for the wisdom of you guys that posted here. The likes of you is the reason that things kinda worked out better and quicker than I expected. I am grateful. I got sucked into the posts of the new guys frustrated because they couldn't get a good group on a pie plate and had all kind of problems with everything. I can honestly say that I've avoided a lot of that because of the time I've spent on MM. I'm not a perfectionist, not OCD, nor am I ADHD. If you didn't catch the message early on, I'm not a young new guy. All the kids call me "Grandpa." On my bucket list is a pledge not to do my last Whitetail hunt until I am at least 85. I'm a stubborn and persistent old hunter and I've been trying not to waste time on the merry-go-round of ML. I have read, watched, written, and asked, so much in two months that I sometimes felt like a run-away locomotive. Ya'll hit the nail on the head - slow down and smell the roses. Your advice is well taken and appreciated. My range bag is packed with the same components that I used last week on that target, including the Hornady SST''s because they did just a tad better than the TEZ. Everything else is on the back burner.

Despite saturating my brain with everything under the sun to do with ML, I have no desire to be a ballistics calculator or tester of products. I hunt to get in the woods to sit under oak trees and enjoy the fresh air. If I harvest a deer it goes in my son's freezer for him and his three young daughters. I will never be as ML smart as you guys here on MM, but thanks to ya'll I'm way smarter than I was two months ago. I'm ok, settled down and relaxed. Going to the range tomorrow and have fun - one load at a time.
 
RoJo..………. I'd like to make a suggestion if that's ok...…..

I'd like to suggest that with the combo you shot the group with in the photo that you just posted, that you settle on it and just shoot more.

It appears that you're trying to obtain knowledge, maybe at to fast a pace. Not being critical of your wanting to learn. Those of us who have been at this for years, even many decades, still learn. We learn from others, trials, from our own and/or other's mistakes. It never ends. And what may work for one, might not for another.
Don't put yourself in a task saturation position, it'll come to you.

Throw that first shot out and the next 5 gave you a great group. :thumb:
My thoughts exactly! Looks like you're done. Are you throwing your powder or weighing it? If you're shooting volume only, with grouping like that, you may try weighing three or four loads, taking the average, and weighing that amount to see if that's tightens you up more. I usually shoot my first shot at a rock to just get out any first shot flinch that sometimes rears its ugly head. That's a great group, even with the fliers, and you should be only 3-4" at 300 yards. Easily minute of deer vitals. Nice shooting.
 
My thoughts exactly! Looks like you're done. Are you throwing your powder or weighing it? If you're shooting volume only, with grouping like that, you may try weighing three or four loads, taking the average, and weighing that amount to see if that's tightens you up more. I usually shoot my first shot at a rock to just get out any first shot flinch that sometimes rears its ugly head. That's a great group, even with the fliers, and you should be only 3-4" at 300 yards. Easily minute of deer vitals. Nice shooting.
I spent some time measuring by both methods before I filled my range tubes. I wasn’t very tidy when doing by volume- mostly because I was pouring too fast. I practiced the technique BuckDoeHunter showed me, but instead of mounding or leveling with the brass tip I leveled with a single edge blade. Tedious, but when I weighed those volume measures I was usually within .1 - .2 of each other. The charges I used at the range were precisely 70 gr. by weight. When I sight a scope in I guess I get a bit unorthodox and anal. I just try to squeeze out every possible hiccup so I know exactly what the gun, scope, and ammo can do. I’m not sure which method I’ll eventually stick with. As for measuring by volume, I did notice that accuracy was more consistent when I avoided tapping, flicking, or any unnecessary agitation while I was measuring. Twenty-six years in the military gave me the mindset that “close” wasn’t good enough when I had the means to be precise. That’s just me.

Anyway, like the guys already urged me, I need to go into a fine tuning mode and have some fun shooting.
 
The smooth sabots are very tight in my barrel, too tight. It takes too much force to seat the bullet. I'm thinking the tightness of the bullet and the heat created coming out the barrel caused it to stick until it hit the target. Like they say, every gun is different and once you find a load that works for you stick with it.
 
That's hard to figure how that happens. I was on a mission recently to determine the exact diameter of my Accura's bore. I've since decided to follow the expertise of others and conclude it's not that important. I guess I drew a lucky card when I duplicated the combo of some successful Accura shooters. I've seen the accuracy with my own rifle and have seen enough evidence of terminal performance that there's no reason right now for me to stray any farther.
 
Any machine shop should have a set of very good pin gauges if you want a good measurement of the lands. You can probably buy a few if you really wanted instead of a whole set.
 
Any machine shop should have a set of very good pin gauges if you want a good measurement of the lands. You can probably buy a few if you really wanted instead of a whole set.
The muzzle of my Accura has the bullet-guiding feature. I don’t know if that would prevent a measure or not. With the Barnes & Hornady sabots doing well so far I’m not sure it matters if I know or not. I’ll check with the machine shop downtown and call the guru of muzzleloaders in the nearby town. Thanks.
 
For those that use BH and do clean between every shot for consistency, how do you go about cleaning between between shots? I’m curious how you guys keep the same POI between your sight in shots vs after you cleaned your gun. Or do you sight in, and leave the barrel dirty until after season?
 
If you run a dry patch it will remove the majority of the fouling but still leaves some. The other mix for a slightly damp patch is....

50/50
91% rubbing alcohol or ISO-HEET...its 99% isopropyl and cheap
Hoppes #9
 
If you run a dry patch it will remove the majority of the fouling but still leaves some. The other mix for a slightly damp patch is....

50/50
91% rubbing alcohol or ISO-HEET...its 99% isopropyl and cheap
Hoppes #9

Awesome, thank you.

Using this, would you just run it down the barrel and back out and use this method during your sight in? Then run another down before loading for your hunt?
 
I dont swab between shots but if i take a shot and it may be loaded for several more days i do run a dry patch. Removing most of the fouling removes at least some of the chance of corrosion.

The night before i hunt i just foul the bore with 2-3 mag primers ONLY. No powder. Fire a few primers and run a dry patch 1 time. Verify the flash hole/channel is clear and hunt the next day.
 
I am similar, just a couple swabs with a dry and send another. Also helps me let the barrel cool doing this. Don’t get me wrong, when I have enough time I try and find the bullet/sabot combo that will shoot accurately with a clean barrel and a lightly fowled one.

I have never hit a primer or multiple prior to going out hunting, I always have my gun sit empty and clean with a little CLP in it until the night before I go out and hunt.
 
I shoot my Optima V2 with BH 20 times yesterday as a test with very cleaning a couple of times to see if there was a change. Did not see any. Here are results of last group at 50 yards. I am new to BH powder so testing was purpose.

20191101_202021.jpg
20191101_150858.jpg
 
Most my guns like to be shot a little dirty or dirty. A few primers puts quite a bit of non corrosive fouling in the bore and it helps remove any traces of oil when you run that dry patch once.

BH209 fouling is mildly corrosive so if you are hunting in humid conditions its a good idea to run the dry patch after firing it. When just shooting for recreation i never swab at all with sabots or conicals. I have shot BH209 over 40 times before without swabbing.
 
I
Wow, that's crazy. Did you ever find an explanation to explain why the smooth sabot performed that way? With so many choices of bullets and sabots out there what influenced you to select the Speer? Like I mentioned, what seems to be working for me so far is the TEZ and the SST. I have to get to the point that I shoot enough of them to settle on a sabot, to at least get me to the opening of ML season. From there I can experiment with more combos.

The attached photo is from the 100-yard target at which I fired the six smooth sabots from Harvester. I'm not sure what caused the flier to the left of my group but it was my first shot fired. The other five rounds are in the group. The bullet hole at the bottom right is from a 240 gr. PT that Ron dropped in with my black sabots. I had just one round so I shot it to see where it would strike. I picked up a pack of 260 gr. PT Gold from Cabela's. I'm taking them to the range this week.

I understand from some readings on MM site that the terminal performance of the 250 gr. TEZ is pretty good. I tried the smooth sabot because I thought the blue sabot was a bit loose. I'm not good enough yet to know how loose is "too loose." Although the black, smooth sabots added some resistance I believe it's possible to handle some additional tightness, just not sure which sabot would give me that without going "too tight," or I can just leave well enough alone. What I don't know yet is the effect a loose load would have when hitting a deer compared to a tighter fitting load that generates more compression.
I would say your finished. Lots of guys don’t get that with a center fire...
 

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