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wildworks

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After cousulting with smi about the max pressures for the gun I found out that the Green monster was not anywhere near its potential. SmI tested the gun to 90 gr 3031

I started to go up from 75 gr 3031 @ 2200fps

I ended up going up to 90 gr that is where the pressure started to show in the primer not blown just starting to swell a little this is the amazing thing!
375 gr rbbt Wildcat ML bullet @ 2563 fps!!!!!!!!!!

the load i backed down to was 88 gr. 3031 no pressure signs and still running for 3 shots 2509 2516 2511 fps so not much spread!

now its off to the range to see what its going to do at Long range my sofware shows only 15.2 MOA @ 500yrds !

i will post results
 
wildworks said:
After cousulting with smi about the max pressures for the gun I found out that the Green monster was not anywhere near its potential. SmI tested the gun to 90 gr 3031

I started to go up from 75 gr 3031 @ 2200fps

I ended up going up to 90 gr that is where the pressure started to show in the primer not blown just starting to swell a little this is the amazing thing!
375 gr rbbt Wildcat ML bullet @ 2563 fps!!!!!!!!!!

the load i backed down to was 88 gr. 3031 no pressure signs and still running for 3 shots 2509 2516 2511 fps so not much spread!

now its off to the range to see what its going to do at Long range my sofware shows only 15.2 MOA @ 500yrds !

i will post results

If one were to explore the maximum power available in a smokeless muzzle loader the results are astounding.

I hesitate to give these loads because the actions of the beginner are generally to shoot too heavy bullet with too fast powder and things go sour very fast when one has little conception of how to make power and still remain in the pressure constraints of the rifle.

So I began this reply by telling each and every one if you load your rifle with the amount of powder in these loads and think smokeless is smokeless there are all sorts of things that can happen and none of them are good. On the other hand all of the loads I refer to have shot out of many types of rifle many of which do not have half the strength of the 10ML or SMI with perfectly safe results. BUT YOU HAVE TO USE THE CORRECT POWDER IN THE CORRECT AMOUNT!

I make no claims for your safety except I have shot most (but not all) of these loads from my own stock (no modifications) 10ML. And they proved safe in every aspect. Some of the loads were shot from my 50-140 but that rifles maximum pressure is well below the 10MLs regular shooting level.

Let me start with a 50-140 load. One of my favorites is 105 grains of AA 4350 under a 550 grain flat nosed bullet. At 2184fps this load makes over 5800fpe (more than a 458 Winchester Mag) at less than 28,000psi pressure. The Accurate Arms data in fact gives an exact pressure of 27,500psi.

The Sharps rifle this load was shot in had a 30" barrel and even allowing for some dead length for the breech plug a 36" barrel should beat this speed by at least 100fps which would break 6300fpe at the same pressure. Translating that to your 387 grain bullet (add the sabot) thats 2600fps at the 5800fpe level and 27,500psi without allowing for the additional barrel length.

Of course the load can't be directly translated because of the lighter weight bullet you'd want to use a slightly faster powder than AA4350 to achieve equal results. Also you'd want to shoot a little more pressure for consistency reasons. The low pressure loads for the 50-140 require a firmly crimped bullet for results and one cannot crimp a muzzle loader load. However a slightly higher maximum pressure and faster powder have the same effect.

Let's take a look at the 505 Gibbs. This old low pressure cartridge also shoots to astounding power. At a pressure limit of 35,000CUP (I won't go into CUP versus psi but I'll say 35,000CUP is less than 40,000psi) this old boy packs a wallop. The wallop was felt at both ends that's the reason smaller calibers became popular even for monstrous sized game.

Lots of Gibbs loads show a 525 grain bullet making 2300+fps (6100fpe) out of a barrel nowhere near 30" long. So raising the pressure to this level ought to be pretty interesting out of your 36" barrel.

Some loads for the Gibbs show a 600 grain bullet at 2300fps. This load was not measured for pressure so could exceed 35,000CUP but not by much. That's 7000fpe but I don't even think the most adventurous soul would really want to go there. OUCH.

When Bad Bull came out with their load showing a 300 grain bullet to 2900fps (a mere 5600fpe) out of a 45 caliber rifle some oohed and ahhed and wondered if the rifle had to be designed to shoot to at 100,000psi. I realized a muzzle loader has no case and the pressure was dependent on how much powder was burned to get to the speed. What people didn't realize was the Bad Bull load was not very high pressures.

Now following that line of thought the 50 caliber barrel has 20% greater volume than the Bad Bull's 45 caliber. Even if you allow for the fact that the pressure in the 50 caliber barrel is less the 50 caliber barrel (same length) will shoot the Bad Bull so far into the weeds as to make a search necessary.

My bottom line to you is 2500fps with a 387 grain bullet from a 36" 50 caliber barrel capable of 40,000psi pressure is a rather mild load.
 
pressure signs

RBinAR

Thanks again for another informative write up! You have given me alot of the information that i have been seeking in the few posts that you have made!

now you say the the 2500 fps with 88 gr 3031 is mild for the barrel that can handle 40,000 psi

what about the pressure signs in the primer? the primer is starting to buldge a little. from this I would have to believe that we are getting close to the max pressure?

should i then look to a different powder to maximize the gun, if so than what?

What is the "on paper potential of this gun"? It has already exceeded what i thought it would do with 2500+ fps with 375 gr bullet.
(by the way this is not for the recoil shy! even at 15+ lbs gun weight it feels like a donkey kicking you in the shoulder!!!)

.50 cal 35" 1-26 twst

thanks again !

kirk
 
Re: pressure signs

wildworks said:
RBinAR

Thanks again for another informative write up! You have given me alot of the information that i have been seeking in the few posts that you have made!

now you say the the 2500 fps with 88 gr 3031 is mild for the barrel that can handle 40,000 psi

what about the pressure signs in the primer? the primer is starting to buldge a little. from this I would have to believe that we are getting close to the max pressure?

should i then look to a different powder to maximize the gun, if so than what?

What is the "on paper potential of this gun"? It has already exceeded what i thought it would do with 2500+ fps with 375 gr bullet.
(by the way this is not for the recoil shy! even at 15+ lbs gun weight it feels like a donkey kicking you in the shoulder!!!)

thanks again !

kirk

kirk you have done well in seeing the primer buldge as a sign to GO BACK. You have reached the load limit and the system limit. However you are still less than 40,000psi in chamber pressure.

Keep in mind that despite being smokeless shooters you are still using an inline muzzle loader. That means that the pressure from the load has a direct path to the primer (albeit a small path) and the primer is not totally enclosed in a wrapper like a cased round would be. This means the primer is subject to reaction at lower pressures than when fired from a case.

The buldge shows excess gas on the primer and that can have adverse effects like vent wearing too fast so even though this is not a safety limit it is a back up sign.

I don't mind admitting that getting you to an absolute maximum would be a step I have not taken with your rifle. I like you have found that ill mannered recoil was enough to discourage me before the rifle was at maximum.

The point I could make is you are at the maximum for your rifle shooting Imr-3031. You would not be at maximum shooting another slower burning powder.
 
powders?

if i am at the limts with 3031

then i should look at h322 or varget??? any thoughts

I am not recoil shy! i want to push it as far as it will safely go!

shooting a .311+ bc bullet fast to Longrange is the goal and in LR shooting there is always tweeking to be done.



kirk
 
I'm going to have to try some 3031 in my .45 after season is over. From your results I am going to guess that around 75-80 grains behind a 300 grain powerbelt will be a great load as long as it is accurate. I do need to find some higher BC bullets that I can load sabotless, but since I already have a few packages of powerbelts I'll start with them
 
HighTechRedneck said:
I'm going to have to try some 3031 in my .45 after season is over. From your results I am going to guess that around 75-80 grains behind a 300 grain powerbelt will be a great load as long as it is accurate. I do need to find some higher BC bullets that I can load sabotless, but since I already have a few packages of powerbelts I'll start with them

Whoa What?? How do you know what pressure 3031 will shoot in a 45 caliber rifle??

Benchmark shoots to 38,500psi when loaded to 59 grains with a slightly heavier bullet in the 450 Marlin. Beenchmark is almost a direct replacement for 3031..... and you want to shoot 80 grains????

I DON"T THINK SO!

Rick's Rule Number Two:

There is absolutely no relation whatsoever as to what load you can shoot in 45 caliber as compared to 50 caliber. Even with a lighter weight bullet you'll likely have to shoot less of the same powder in 45 caliber to have equal pressures.
 
Re: powders?

wildworks said:
if i am at the limts with 3031

then i should look at h322 or varget??? any thoughts

I am not recoil shy! i want to push it as far as it will safely go!

shooting a .311+ bc bullet fast to Longrange is the goal and in LR shooting there is always tweeking to be done.

kirk

You sure don't want to go to H322 because it will burn faster than 3031 and you'd slow down because the maximum amount of powder you can burn at the same pressure is less.

Ok I'm going to help one more time because you have some space left yet, still it turns on the red light when someone want to get the maximum. You don't really want the maximum. Both you and the rifle want to be back from the maximum quite a bit because if something goes wrong (I can't tell you how many people report shooting cleaning jags and such with their load) you will need the space.

Still we are playing with low pressures for a well designed rifle. Any modern rifle worth its' salt will shoot well beyond 40,000psi so our attempt here is to decide what speed of powder best suits what we want. Now our speed of powder could be very slow and we could burn a ton of it but I don't suggest that course at all.

Really slow powders require a well crimped bullet or a very heavy projectile. You have neither so we must choose wisely grasshopper. Varget in my opinion would be too slow. My suggestion is a moderate burning rate powder Alliant RL #12. It is not extremely slower than 3031. #12 actually compares as a fit for Imr-4895 and the speed of 4895 is about what I want. I like it better than 4895 for its' uniformity and ease of ignition.

In a large case (and it has a large case though no case at all) I expect RL#12 will load about 10% more powder than 3031 and increase speed as much as 100fps. You have to only start where you are now (90 grains) and move up very slowly all the while being ready to move back quickly if you see any pressure signs or until you get to 98 grain which is maximum.

I HAVE NOT SHOT THESE SUGGESTED LOADS IN A RIFLE.
So guess what? If you shoot them it will be solely on the faith that I can predict what will work from many years of experience. You have no other promise whatsoever.
 
RBinAR

Thanks again for the input

I in no way want to be working the gun at peak pressure! and i do not want to put my self at risk of injury.

I will take it slow and easy on gr. at a time and will start at 88 gr that is where there is no sign of pressure and work up to that 98 gr range looking for the pressure signs

If i can get a possible 100 more fps with a 375 gr bullet that will get me in the 2600 fps range. That is interesting as my long range rifle 338 rum shooting 300 gr matchkings is only at 2650 fps!

here is a pic of the green monster!
SMIgreen.jpg


kirk
 
HighTechRedneck,
Mark Listen to what RBinAR is tellin you buddy, you could get in real trouble real fast trying to equate the 50 to the 45. I would recommend you sending RB a pm for some direction on a 45 cal load that will perform at the levels you are wanting.
Also I saw you mentioned using power-belts. I highly doubt you will have success with those bullets at any real velocity as the plastic belt will most likely fail before you get to the velocity you hope to attain.
 
I was just making a wild guess on that load. I would have definatly checked the reloading manuals to get an idea from other similar cal rifles before heading to the range. RB just beat me to the manual this time, or else I would have edited my post when I realized just how far off I was. I might occasionaly post totaly stupid stuff, but I do usualy check things out before attempting them.

The reason I went with powerbelts was that I waited until too late to order any .40 cal bullets. I have all kinds of .38 cal bullets and some sabots for .38's but can't get the loads hot enough without punching the bullet thru the sabot. The local gun shop had several packages of powerbelts so I gave it a try. Started with 50 grains of 4198, and had awsome groups rite away. I sighted in 8" high at 100 yards then stepped back to 20 and fired 1 shot taht was 2" high. Thats when I stopped because I figured that I had a 250 yard load. Now I just want to try them out with other loads/powders after the season winds down
 
I sighted in 8" high at 100 yards then stepped back to 20 and fired 1 shot taht was 2" high.

Might be, might not. You certainly cannot consider the results from one shot to be conclusive. However it sure does make for some mighty fine groups! :lol:
 
HighTechRedneck said:
I was just making a wild guess on that load. I would have definatly checked the reloading manuals to get an idea from other similar cal rifles before heading to the range. RB just beat me to the manual this time, or else I would have edited my post when I realized just how far off I was. I might occasionaly post totaly stupid stuff, but I do usualy check things out before attempting them.

The reason I went with powerbelts was that I waited until too late to order any .40 cal bullets. I have all kinds of .38 cal bullets and some sabots for .38's but can't get the loads hot enough without punching the bullet thru the sabot. The local gun shop had several packages of powerbelts so I gave it a try. Started with 50 grains of 4198, and had awsome groups rite away. I sighted in 8" high at 100 yards then stepped back to 20 and fired 1 shot taht was 2" high. Thats when I stopped because I figured that I had a 250 yard load. Now I just want to try them out with other loads/powders after the season winds down

To have a slight mis-judgement is no big deal. You have the idea, check the load with a book that shoots a similar caliber to the pressure you are trying to achieve. With a 300 grain bullet I see the possibility of 65 to 70 grains but I would start low.

Your shooting of the power belt bullet is a great added feature to the 45 caliber rifle. I would have never because I though they wouldn't work any better than in the 50 with light loads at least seems like I was wrong.
 
I honestly didn't want to try the powerbelts at 1st because of what I had heard about them in the .50's. It just came down to that being my only other option that I could try and season had already started.
 
Rifleman said:
Might be, might not. You certainly cannot consider the results from one shot to be conclusive.

I do see your point. I do consider it to be slightly more conclusive than figuring the max point blank range, and there are several on here that do just that. My biggest mistake was not spending enough time at the range before season. When I did get to the range nothing that I had worked. I tried the powerbelts in a last ditch effort, and they shot extreamly well at 100 yards. I probably never should have taken the 200 yard shot that I did because I did get reported for shooting under lights after dark. Nothing illegal about shooting at targets on your own property after dark, but when it's after dark the 1st week of firearms season the CO's do take it seriously until you can prove that you were only punching paper
 
Shooting at night with lights! That must be quite the show. I can only imagine the flame that comes out of barrel when it is dark. I think you might need to work on some 45 tracer rounds.
 
peteo said:
Shooting at night with lights! That must be quite the show. I can only imagine the flame that comes out of barrel when it is dark. I think you might need to work on some 45 tracer rounds.
Last Sat evening, I shot a coyote out of my Texas style deer stand with my 223 at the very last possible minute I could shoot, it was really getting dark, and I almost got blinded by the muzzle flash. I bet a smokeless MLer would even be a lot more.
 
Shooting the Contender .44 mag Super 14 at night has even more muzzle flash. My rest was setup prety well rite under a security light so the flash wasn't blinding by any means, but you can definatly see it. Something about the sound of shots at night is different also. I realy enjoy shooting at night, but 1 of the neighbors who lives about 1/2 mile from my parents farm calls the Sheriffs department every time that I do it. Black powder loads at night are the absolute best in my openion.
 
today was the last day i can hunt deer this year so i empted smokeless pole after dark flame shot out 4 ft 42/4759 /300hp rem clint
 
Pyrodex pellets fired by themselves at night make for a pretty cool tracer effect, or so I hear. :wink:
 
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