Blackhorn Density

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Jeff, this is good information, but can you describe your procedure for measuring VOLUMETRIC charges? do you just throw, pour, scoop, tap, scrape off level, etc,?

Any information is good information, but 2 of anything does not give enough information as far as a statistical sample size, per Statistical Process Control and Statistical Problem Solving.

What small amount of information you have does at least let us look in the window, and supports what I discovered back in 2008, and have been saying for the last 11+ years concerning Blackhorn 209. Not without a lot of protest, if you haven't noticed.:D

There are several other factors, both that you can control, and those you cannot. Storage by both the distributor and consumer, humidity, temperature, lighting (natural), age, seal on container, opened container vs all factory sealed containers, obviously Lot #'s, just to name a few.



Chart above shows avg velocity bye weight per 3 lots 165 fps difference

I got 175 FPS Extreme Spread from your WEIGHED charges across the 3 lot numbers.

I got 61 FPS Extreme Spread from your VOLUME charges across the 3 lot numbers.

Quite a difference!


Guess my data is confusing.

Lot 30 was shot at 120v and 84w
Lot 31 was shot at 120v and 84w
Lot32 was shot at 120v and 84w

Left side of photo says lot 30v this was 120 volume also 30w this was 84 gr weight.

So info is on sheet
84gr wt
Lot30 2316
Lot31. 2217
Lot32. 2155


The only thing that confused me, after I figured out the method to the madness, was the top numbers above the line that were also VOLUME charges from lot #30 with cold bore beside them. You didn't also list a WEIGHT charge, so I didn't use those numbers, since you had lot #30 with all the others below the line. The numbers also seemed to conflict with the other numbers from the same lot?




30v is lot 30 volume 120
30w is lot 30 weight 84


OK, without getting to technical, I used your information of all 3 Lot Numbers to show something that everyone should be able to understand.

If you were to venture from one lot to another, blindly without a Chronograph, for both VOLUME vs WEIGHT.

Using 120 grains VOLUME = 84 grains WEIGHT, per Western Powders.


120 gr VOLUME MEASURED CHARGES, FPS, Total, High, Low, Ave, Extreme Spread, for all 3 Lots.

Lot #30
2280 H
2219

Lot #31
2238
2219 L

Lot #32
2221
2243
_______
13, 420 / 6
= 2236.6 AVE

2280. High
2219. Low
2236.6. Average
61 FPS Extreme Spread (VOLUME)


84 gr WEIGHT MEASURED CHARGES, FPS, Total, High, Low, Ave, Extreme Spread, for all 3 Lots.

Lot #30
2331 H
2301

Lot #31
2211
2224

Lot #32
2158
2152 L
________
13,377 / 6
= 2229.5 AVE

2231 High
2152 Low
2229.5 Average
179 FPS Extreme Spread (WEIGHT)


I think you guys are starting to figure out what I've been saying, and getting a whole lotta flack for for years. That's OK, I grew up on a farm and have very thick skin.

If you WEIGH your charges, you better have a chronograph, because every time you change Lot Numbers, you need to figure out what WEIGHT charge gives you the velocity you desire for you chosen bullet. It will change each and every LOT.

So, I guess it's safe to say, at least from your small sample sizes, that there is still variation from one Lot to another Lot, even after Lot #30. Even more so if you WEIGH your charges.

There is more to, "It's Always The Same VOLUME", than just a catchy phrase!

Can you guys hear me now?

Mic drop!
 
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don't know what this sight would do without your great knowledge Busta
 
What I can take away from this exercise is that Western Powders is "dumbing down" the potency of BH209 with each advancing lot. Maybe consumers and manufacturers advocating ever massive charges (volume/weigh) of 209 has their lawyers losing sleep. Just a thought.

Bill
 
Bill, what i believe is happening is Western Powders is just returning to the original density of Blackhorn. In the beginning 100g of Blackhorn weighed 70 grains. As time went by, the density of Blackhorn gradually increased, Now, once again, the density is what it was in the beginning. So..........in a way you are correct, the increasing density may have increased the amount of energy in a load, but now the energy in a load is less; more like it was in 2008. Just a thought.
 
Since we're all sharing what we think, here's what what I think. And a couple things I know.

I know that the smaller the extreme spread, the more potential there is for a given load to produce repeatable accuracy.

I know that BH209 was intended to be measured by volume. Based on this I'm not surprised that extreme spreads are less by volume.

I think that it seems counterintuitive that volume would have the smaller extreme spread than a charge weighed to the tenth of a grain.

I think that at the end of the day the powder is pretty accurate and that it will produce stellar results all long as whatever method is used is used consistently.

I think that whatever method makes the user feel more confident is the method the user should use, but at this point there's no evidence to support weight being more accurate than volume. Therefore, use what works for you, but know that at this juncture if you're still trying to argue to the death that weight is better I'm just going to think you have too much time on your hands and are probably trying to up your post count.
 
This morning an opportunity was used to get out, and shoot the Knight Ultralight rifle. The load was 70g Blackhorn, fiber wad, 420g bullet, W209 primer. The powder was measured using an RCBS Uniflow powder measure, which measures volume. Each load was weighed. Each load was untouched, unchanged. The weights of 15 loads varied from 49.3g to 50.2 grain. Each load was measured as the same volume, and burned without change.

Most of the shots were clocked. The fastest measured speed was eliminated. The lowest measured speed was eliminated.

The highest remaining speed is 1329 fps.
The lowest remaining speed is 1320 fps.

The spread is only 9 fps. The standard deviation is 3. These results are excellent. The speeds of these loads is very consistent. Measuring by volume produced excellent results; works very good. Measuring by volume is plenty good enough.



However, it is obvious, measuring by weight, is more accurate.
 
My personal gun utilizes 120 gr bye volume with great accuracy.

My process is this when I get a new lot of powder i throw 20 charges bye volume and weight each charge then take average of those 20 charge weight and that is my new charge weight for this lot of powder.

Just my way and has served me well from 0 to 500 yds
 
I’m used to being confused, but now it’s worse. I decided my Optima would do its best with 90 grains of powder. So, following the 70% rule, I figured the charges should weigh 66.5 grains and weighed out 10 tubes of that amount. After reading and rereading this thread, I thought that the weighed charges would be +/- from 90 grains. But, after checking powder from two of the tubes, I found them to be exactly 90 grains. Hope somebody can tell me what I’m missing.
 

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I continue to use the simple TC volume measure, although I have adjusted to measure 120 gr. T7-2f by volume and weight on a balance beam scale. Each bottle is checked.

TC-Poder-Mearsure.jpg


The real key in my mind is to load the measure each time the same way over and over... "Be Consistent"
 
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I have been going strictly by weight using a Dillon Precision scale. The only volume measure is the brass one shown in the picture. I guess I’ll just use it in the future or find the Lee product mentioned above. Thanks to all for the replies.
 

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My process is this when I get a new lot of powder i throw 20 charges bye volume and weight each charge then take average of those 20 charge weight and that is my new charge weight for this lot of powder.

Makes perfect sense to me if someone wants to weigh. That is probably one of the better methods if you dont have a powder dropper like the RCBS UniFlow or Harrels.
 

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