Bore Riding Muzzleloader Bullets

Discussion in 'Inline Muzzleloading' started by sabotloader, Apr 15, 2019.

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  1. Apr 15, 2019 #1

    sabotloader

    sabotloader

    sabotloader

    Keep Shooting Muzzleloaders - They are a Blast Staff Member ADMIN Global Moderator

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    Several years ago Dave Fricke put my onto a bullet theorem developed by a guy named Lutz Moeller. Basically with the little reading I have done he created a bullet to achieve great accuracy (and that is only one part of what he was trying to do) by putting 'Drive Bands' around the bullet. The bands prevented the entire bullet from making contact with the bore. I think he basically was saying with only the bands riding the bore, not the drag of the whole bullet, he could achieve greater accuracy. Yes, he did have some other goals for his bullets but the 'long range' and 'accurate' thoughts are what caught my attention.

    These are a couple pics of his concepts..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    With his bullet the drive bands did grab the lands for rotation and the bands do fill the grooves for the gas seal.

    From this theorem - I deviated... If I could develop a muzzleloading bullet that would grab the lands - the bullet would get the rotation necessary for stabilization, then all I needed was a gas seal. During my time working on this I was using bullets that would drop/slide easily down the bore of the given rifle. From that point I would knurl the bullet to create enough lift on the bullet to create a grip on the bore, actually the lands. And I was REALLY surprised how little grip was actually necessary to get stabilization.
    I knurled bullets using files and then later went to what I call cut knurl lines.

    This is an example of knurling using the files.

    [​IMG]

    And this shows an example of a cut knurl

    [​IMG]

    For me the cut knurls worked much better than the knurling with the files.

    The more difficult part was getting the right amount of lift for each barrel.

    Next - Gas Seal! My experiments started out with just 50 cal. bullets. My first seal were just plain shot cards. They worked very well then one day a thought came out of no-where - Why not a MMP 50 cal. sub bridge... There were outstanding!

    [​IMG]

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    The sub base was not created for this but they worked great!

    With these gas seals I was able to shoot regular flat based bullets with very good accuracy, even though they loaded very easily. I am sure that I was not filling the grooves, but the bullets were gripping the lands of the bore.

    From these thought and Lehigh Dave's bullet making mind he created many different attempts at making a sabotless basically bore riding bullet. He started out with 50 cal. bullets but over time and experimenting I found that there is such a wide range of 50 cal. bore diameters it would be nearly impossible to build a universal bullet

    The 45 cal. on the other hand offered a more narrow target opportunity of bore sizes.
    This is a picture of an early attempt a 50 cal. Sabotless hunting bullet. The drive bands designed to grab the lands and the base of the bullet was designed to obturate the size of the bore and seal the gas behind the bullet.

    https://i.postimg.cc/rpdPTTw4/Lehigh50calSabotless.jpg/img]

    Then there was a switch to 45 cal. sabotless with the belief on my part that the 45 would make it easier to make a 'universal' bullet.

    [img]https://i.postimg.cc/bvDLSRbS/LehighCompare-45-40-.jpg

    That brings up to today, the .458x260CF sabotless bullet which is nearly universal

    [​IMG]
    Work on sabtless is still ongoing!
     
  2. Apr 15, 2019 #2

    Jackalope

    Jackalope

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    I’ll have to try these sometime. Hopefully i’ll draw a pronghorn tag, these would work quit well.
     
  3. Apr 15, 2019 #3

    Danny Ross

    Danny Ross

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    Very interesting article. I will have to think about how I can apply these ideas to my home made swaged bullets. Although, there is not a lot of difference between a patched round ball, and paper patched bullets, and a cloth patched bullet. The bullet does not come in contact with the lands, just the patch.
     
  4. Apr 15, 2019 #4

    LarryBud

    LarryBud

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    Thanks SL.

    Can I currently purchase the 458s? Do we know if they prefer a 1/20 or a 1/30 twist?

    Thanks,

    lB
     
  5. Apr 15, 2019 #5

    ENCORE50A

    ENCORE50A

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    Dennis at Fury Bullets https://www.furycustombullets.com/webapp/p/208/muzzle-loader has an excellent accurate shooting and devastating hunting bullet for .50cal rifles and reasonably priced, called the Fury Star Tip MZ. You can order a sizing pack, determine your actual bore size and then order the knurled bullets to that size. Better yet if you do a lot of shooting and want the upmost accuracy, a Swinglock die for sizing your own bullets is better.
    My experience with a .50cal and land riders last summer and fall, indicates loading pressure does make a difference if you're looking for the best possible accuracy, especially at range.

    Accuracy to 200yds can be exceptional.....
    9-12-18ba.jpg

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    They function very well...…

    resized photo2.jpg

    3.5yo DRT...….. ;)

    IMG_1459.JPG
     
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  6. Apr 15, 2019 #6

    sabotloader

    sabotloader

    sabotloader

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    They are available for purchase on the Lehigh web site.

    I shoot them from a 1/20 Knight Super DISC and some have shot them from a 1/28 twist rifle with very good results. 1/30 could be marginal but you will not know until you try your load and view the result. A couple of folks have shot them from a 1-30 but have not shot enough to make a 100% proclamation that they will work.

    I forgot to include this in the first post that all should be aware of.

    These bullets are built specifically for a .458 - 45-70 barrel. The 45-70 rifle barrel has deeper grooves than does a 45 cal. ML barrel and as most of you know the ML barrel can actually be different bore sizes, any where from .449 to .454. In this case the new bullet can actually cover that wide range of bores. The OD of the bullet is right at .4495 and with that it will fit MOST of the 45 ML barrels on the market. The Drive Barbs on the bullet can be resized to what ever works best for your bore. By that I mean you can resize the drive bands/barbs from .458 to .454 which I believed would easy the amount of pressure I needed to push the bullet through the crown of the rifle. You can load a factory bullet into a true ML barrel but it does take a lot of pressure to get the bullet through the crown. Once through the crown they can be moved down the bore with little resistance as the barbs a riding down the lands.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Resized and ready to shoot..
     
  7. Apr 15, 2019 #7

    Dougs136Schwartz

    Dougs136Schwartz

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    Very interesting read . I love experimenting with new and different things. It amazes this works as well as it does. With a centerfire the bullet is forced and jumps into the lands apon fireing. This is kind of backwards. It seems like full forming this bullet would be the best process. I guess by short starting the bullet forcing it into the lands is kind of doing the same thing. What little I shot the bullet I was amazed by the accuracy I achieved. I would think they would make a excellent hunting bullet .
     
  8. Apr 15, 2019 #8

    sabotloader

    sabotloader

    sabotloader

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    ENCORE50A - an advantage you have is that you are shooting a copper/lead bullet and it will obturate to the barrel when shot so you do get the gas seal. With the bullets I am shooting, solid copper or brass - Barnes or Lehigh the is no obturation and they truly ride the rails (lands) up the bore. That is why it is important for you to achieve the right 'loading' pressure.
     
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  9. Apr 15, 2019 #9

    sabotloader

    sabotloader

    sabotloader

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    Doug, I recovered only two bullets so far when shooting at the farm. I was shooting them through clay pigeons into very wet farming soil (mud!) the two that I recovered, the nose worked as designed - the petals were gone and had radiated outwards. Then after cleaning them I could see the land marks in the barbs - there was not any indication the bullet slipped up the bore. The land cuts in the barbs were very distinctive.

    The wound channel in the soil is kinda neat... the bullet passes through the bird goes along into the soil a few inches creating a little mounded channel and then the will be a small volcano effect in the channel. You need to go another foot or so after the volcano effect to find the bullet core.

    The only part of the bullet that really shows expansion and definite land/groove marks is the powder cup at the end of the bullet.

    This is an older picture but it shows what I am referring to with the bullet entering the wet soil.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Apr 17, 2019 #10

    GregK

    GregK

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    Dennis is a great guy & he makes reasonably priced Bullets that perform flawlessly

    Greg
     
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