Brinell testing

Modern Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

TiggerLueb

Well-Known Member
*
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Messages
211
Reaction score
181
Looking at casting some of my own bullets again and I had this thought.
What is the hardness range that most of you try to achieve for hunting purposes?
I am looking at a hardness of 18 is that too soft?
 
18 Brinell is WAY WAY to Hard. For Muzzleloader you want PURE Lead at 5 Brinell, or Very Close to it, I would not Shoot anything above 1-40 Alloy (8.5 Brinell) for Hunting, You won’t get much, if any Expansion. PURE Lead is KING in our Muzzleloaders, At typical Velocities of 1300 to 1500 Fps. I use a TON of 1-20 Alloy For Target, But i would never use it on Big Game
 
Last edited:
That’s the equivalent of FMJ’s from a centerfire. Just pokes little holes in stuff.
 
That’s the equivalent of FMJ’s from a centerfire. Just pokes little holes in stuff.

Exactly, 15 BHN (Lyman #2) is what i am using in my .308 Centerfire at over 2500 Fps.

The Bullets would need to be Sized to “Bore/Land Ride” in order to load them, There is just NO WAY a Muzzleloader using Real Blackpowder, or Substitutes such as Pyrodex or Triple Seven is Gonna “Bump up” 18 BHN Lead/Alloy to Fill the Grooves, and Without “Bumping up” Accuracy would be AWFUL at best.

18 BHN is Between Lyman #2 at 15 BHN, and Linotype at 22 BHN, That is Groove Diameter Centerfire cartridge material

In Muzzleloaders we need Soft Lead, and up to 1-40 Alloy MAX for Good Expansion at Typical Muzzleloader Velocities. 1-40 Alloy is as Hard as i would EVER use for Hunting Big Game, Actually the ONLY Reason I would use 1-40 is to Tighten my Bullet to Bore Fit. My preference for Hunting, And Maximum Expansion will always be PURE Lead
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the information and I will go with a softer lead material.
 
Looking at casting some of my own bullets again and I had this thought.
What is the hardness range that most of you try to achieve for hunting purposes?
I am looking at a hardness of 18 is that too soft?

Like Lewis said 18 is way too hard. I have shot lead that hard and it is super finnicky in my muzzleloader.
I use hardened bullets. I start out with pure. I use a Cabine Tree hardness tester. It is a dial indicator and can read infinite levels of hardness. A soft 5 or a hard 5 kind can be seen with these.

P6vEGW6.jpg


Again I start out with pure and I add chilled reclaimed lead shot. I use it because I have so stinking much of it.
Anyway I add small amounts at a time. Thin I pour a bullet and cool it with my air compressor. If you water quench the bullets it will harden them if they have alloy in them.
So I cool them with air, and test. Cabine tree gives a breakdown of the numbers. There are two different charts this one matches mine.

Tester Hardness Cross Reference

Material Dial Reading SAECO Brinell

Pure Lead* .020-.030 0 5

40-1 .045-.050 5.5 8.5

30-1 .053-.056 6 9

25-1 .062-.065 6.25 9.5

20-1 .068-.070 6.5 10

10-1 .072-.074 6.75 11.5

New WW** .074-.076 7 12.5 (est)

Aged WW** .080-.083 8 14 (est)

Lyman #2 .084-.086 8.5 15

Linotype (old) .086-.090 10 22

Quenched WW# .090-.095 10.5 23-24

Mono/stereo type .095-.098 10.5-11.5 24-28

Heat treated # .098+ 12+ 32+

I have came up with a hardness that works great for me. Some rifles like pure lead others like a little hardness in the mix. For my 50's I have them hardened on my tester to .032 to .038. I have seen some of these bullets age harden to .043 but they still shoot and behave the same on game. I consider them to be between 6 and 7 BHN but that is my numbers only.
My son, and I have shot a ton of game with these bullets hardened like this and for the most part we never find the bullets. They always plow through and are gone. The first one I found was on a cow elk.

4g4wiKP.jpg


I shot her at 60 yards. She was quartering to me and this spot was under 100 yards to private land. I had to put her down where she stood. The bullet crushed the shoulder and was found in the flank under the skin. The bullet was pretty well trashed and only weighed 288 grains, The cow was knocked off her feet. She got back up went about 10 yards and went down for good.

kVH9wf1.jpg


Oy56lY5.jpg


Again on deer and Pronghorn this bullet is never found. The next one I found was this year. I shot a bull at 248 yards with them. I held for a high shoulder/ spine shot to anchor the bull instantly. It did and I knew I would find the bullet.

M7e6pXD.jpg


The bullet started out at 458 grains.

H1Jkg7v.jpg


When I found it, it weighed 454 grains.

V71Mr4N.jpg

9a42XIw.jpg


The slightly hardened bullet shoots better in my rifles and performs excellent on game.

The next bullet I make is for my Hawken.

1kWwyAq.jpg


I shoot a RCBS 11mm rifle bullet in that gun. They weigh 408 grains.

2UMJRHF.jpg


This gun likes that bullet a bit harder. These are hardened to between .045 and .048 on the dial indicator I consider them to be 8.5 BHN.
I have only found a couple of these bullets in about 7 years of using it Most of them smoke through. This bullet was found in a deer that my son shot. He had hit it with his 50 and the deer looked like it was going to get up. I handed him the rifle and he hit the buck in the flank and the bullet was found under the skin in the neck. It weighs 408 grains after plowing through a lot of animal.

d1YscTo.jpg


I have found that a slightly hardened bullet can be more accurate in some guns. I also have seen that a slightly hardened bullet will behave better on game.
In this picture I have two 50 cal 410 gr Hornady Great Plains bullets. Both were shot into a buck at 175 yards. The one on the left weighed 354 grains and the one on the right was 385.

xO4JRud.jpg


Both were broad side shots and the bullets were found under the skin. Neither bullet took the buck off his feet. Even at the distance of 175 yards the bullets over expanded at the reduced velocity. This was the buck that was shot.

yqPZlKG.jpg


That buck was shot 4 times by me with the Hornady great plains bullets. After that I developed my own bullets and hardness. I sol the remaining bullets I had on inventory and never looked back.
 
@idahoron did you ever do a Hardness test on those Hornady Bullets? I know they are Pure Lead, But what Degree? I suspect they were SUPER SOFT.

As I’ve said several times on here, Pure Lead is NOT all Equal, Pure Lead is Given a VERY Wide Range of .015 to .035 on my Cabin Tree Dial/Chart, That is 20 Whole points, Compare that to Alloys that are Given 3 to 5 Points. A Pure Lead Bullet at the Softest end .015, is gonna Perform VERY VERY Different than a Bullet at the Top end of Pure Lead .035

I have been meaning to do a Bullet “Capture” Performance Test on this for some time now, i have everything ready, But just haven’t had the Chance to get out and do it yet. The test will be to Show what i have been Saying about All PURE Lead NOT Being Equal, The Test will be titled ”PURE LEAD VS PURE LEAD” i have a 2-3 pound Bar of Pure Lead here that is the Softest stuff i have ever seen (Thanks @Harleysboss) It measures .016-.017 on my Dial. I have been Buying Pure Lead from Buffalo Arms for Several Years Now, And have Kept Track of the Hardness, Every bit of it that i have gotten from BACO measures at the Top end of Pure Lead, .032-.033 on My Dial

This is Typical PURE Lead Bullet Performance i see with Buffalo Arms Stamped Certified Pure Lead that measures .032-.033 on My Cabin Tree Lead Hardness Dial. I have Collected and Weighed Bullets from Solid Banks of Dirt, Sand, Rocks, Etc. In to Water, I have also Shot End to End Rounds of Solid Firewood Blocks and Split the Bullets Out, This is what i Find 99.9% Of the Time

gKPOWhG.jpg


GAn4avk.jpg
 
Some people do use hardcast bullets for hunting. I borrowed a friends rifle loaded with saboted hardcast 400 gr. flat nose bullets from Harvester. It penetrated an elk from left front shoulder to right rear ham at 75 yards. It didn't kill as fast as I like, but it did work. I've used 400 gr. precision rifle pure lead bullets and felt they expanded a bit too much, because they didn't exit the elk. But, I was using 150 gr. of powder in a 30 inch barrel, so the velocity was high. I want to try full bore cast bullets, but when I do, I believe I'll try the 1:40.
 
Like Lewis said 18 is way too hard. I have shot lead that hard and it is super finnicky in my muzzleloader.
I use hardened bullets. I start out with pure. I use a Cabine Tree hardness tester. It is a dial indicator and can read infinite levels of hardness. A soft 5 or a hard 5 kind can be seen with these.

P6vEGW6.jpg


Again I start out with pure and I add chilled reclaimed lead shot. I use it because I have so stinking much of it.
Anyway I add small amounts at a time. Thin I pour a bullet and cool it with my air compressor. If you water quench the bullets it will harden them if they have alloy in them.
So I cool them with air, and test. Cabine tree gives a breakdown of the numbers. There are two different charts this one matches mine.

Tester Hardness Cross Reference

Material Dial Reading SAECO Brinell

Pure Lead* .020-.030 0 5

40-1 .045-.050 5.5 8.5

30-1 .053-.056 6 9

25-1 .062-.065 6.25 9.5

20-1 .068-.070 6.5 10

10-1 .072-.074 6.75 11.5

New WW** .074-.076 7 12.5 (est)

Aged WW** .080-.083 8 14 (est)

Lyman #2 .084-.086 8.5 15

Linotype (old) .086-.090 10 22

Quenched WW# .090-.095 10.5 23-24

Mono/stereo type .095-.098 10.5-11.5 24-28

Heat treated # .098+ 12+ 32+

I have came up with a hardness that works great for me. Some rifles like pure lead others like a little hardness in the mix. For my 50's I have them hardened on my tester to .032 to .038. I have seen some of these bullets age harden to .043 but they still shoot and behave the same on game. I consider them to be between 6 and 7 BHN but that is my numbers only.
My son, and I have shot a ton of game with these bullets hardened like this and for the most part we never find the bullets. They always plow through and are gone. The first one I found was on a cow elk.

4g4wiKP.jpg


I shot her at 60 yards. She was quartering to me and this spot was under 100 yards to private land. I had to put her down where she stood. The bullet crushed the shoulder and was found in the flank under the skin. The bullet was pretty well trashed and only weighed 288 grains, The cow was knocked off her feet. She got back up went about 10 yards and went down for good.

kVH9wf1.jpg


Oy56lY5.jpg


Again on deer and Pronghorn this bullet is never found. The next one I found was this year. I shot a bull at 248 yards with them. I held for a high shoulder/ spine shot to anchor the bull instantly. It did and I knew I would find the bullet.

M7e6pXD.jpg


The bullet started out at 458 grains.

H1Jkg7v.jpg


When I found it, it weighed 454 grains.

V71Mr4N.jpg

9a42XIw.jpg


The slightly hardened bullet shoots better in my rifles and performs excellent on game.

The next bullet I make is for my Hawken.

1kWwyAq.jpg


I shoot a RCBS 11mm rifle bullet in that gun. They weigh 408 grains.

2UMJRHF.jpg


This gun likes that bullet a bit harder. These are hardened to between .045 and .048 on the dial indicator I consider them to be 8.5 BHN.
I have only found a couple of these bullets in about 7 years of using it Most of them smoke through. This bullet was found in a deer that my son shot. He had hit it with his 50 and the deer looked like it was going to get up. I handed him the rifle and he hit the buck in the flank and the bullet was found under the skin in the neck. It weighs 408 grains after plowing through a lot of animal.

d1YscTo.jpg


I have found that a slightly hardened bullet can be more accurate in some guns. I also have seen that a slightly hardened bullet will behave better on game.
In this picture I have two 50 cal 410 gr Hornady Great Plains bullets. Both were shot into a buck at 175 yards. The one on the left weighed 354 grains and the one on the right was 385.

xO4JRud.jpg


Both were broad side shots and the bullets were found under the skin. Neither bullet took the buck off his feet. Even at the distance of 175 yards the bullets over expanded at the reduced velocity. This was the buck that was shot.

yqPZlKG.jpg


That buck was shot 4 times by me with the Hornady great plains bullets. After that I developed my own bullets and hardness. I sol the remaining bullets I had on inventory and never looked back.
Most excellent post...thank you
 
@idahoron did you ever do a Hardness test on those Hornady Bullets? I know they are Pure Lead, But what Degree? I suspect they were SUPER SOFT.

As I’ve said several times on here, Pure Lead is NOT all Equal, Pure Lead is Given a VERY Wide Range of .015 to .035 on my Cabin Tree Dial/Chart, That is 20 Whole points, Compare that to Alloys that are Given 3 to 5 Points. A Pure Lead Bullet at the Softest end .015, is gonna Perform VERY VERY Different than a Bullet at the Top end of Pure Lead .035

I have been meaning to do a Bullet “Capture” Performance Test on this for some time now, i have everything ready, But just haven’t had the Chance to get out and do it yet. The test will be to Show what i have been Saying about All PURE Lead NOT Being Equal, The Test will be titled ”PURE LEAD VS PURE LEAD” i have a 2-3 pound Bar of Pure Lead here that is the Softest stuff i have ever seen (Thanks @Harleysboss) It measures .016-.017 on my Dial. I have been Buying Pure Lead from Buffalo Arms for Several Years Now, And have Kept Track of the Hardness, Every bit of it that i have gotten from BACO measures at the Top end of Pure Lead, .032-.033 on My Dial

This is Typical PURE Lead Bullet Performance i see with Buffalo Arms Stamped Certified Pure Lead that measures .032-.033 on My Cabin Tree Lead Hardness Dial. I have Collected and Weighed Bullets from Solid Banks of Dirt, Sand, Rocks, Etc. In to Water, I have also Shot End to End Rounds of Solid Firewood Blocks and Split the Bullets Out, This is what i Find 99.9% Of the Time

I did do a test on them. They ran .018 to .023
You are exactly right, they are on the super soft side. The all lead Power belts are about the same. Soft as pudding on velvet.

You said
"As I’ve said several times on here, Pure Lead is NOT all Equal, Pure Lead is Given a VERY Wide Range of .015 to .035 on my Cabin Tree Dial/Chart, That is 20 Whole points, Compare that to Alloys that are Given 3 to 5 Points. A Pure Lead Bullet at the Softest end .015, is gonna Perform VERY VERY Different than a Bullet at the Top end of Pure Lead .035"

That is the thing everyone doesn't understand that doesn't have a Cabine Tree tester. There can be like I said a hard 5 and a soft 5. 5BHN being from .015 to .035 is a HUGE range. I harden my Rotometals lead to get it to the level that the BACO lead comes to the door. That .032 to .038 is a hardness that is about perfect for my 500 S&W bullets.
I had a batch of my bullets that I made that I had trouble with back in 2008. I set them aside and later I tested them. That batch was .016 to .024. Those bullets shot like crap. I got that lead from my Grandpa back around 2005 or so. As a ingot that lead measured .010 to .018 I am sure he got it when he was shooting lead pistol bullets in a club shoot in Sothern California back in the 50's and 60's.

While lead hardness is a topic and discussion in the cartridge gun circles it is seldom discussed by ML guys. The ones that do are like you and I that know hardness makes a huge difference and have the equipment to test. Most guys buy a box of bullets or round balls over the counter and have no Idea that hardness makes a difference in both accuracy and on game.

I have been compiling a data base on lead since 2008. It is interesting to see what people call "pure". Ebay lead is never "pure" and is hard as wood pecker lips.
 
I did do a test on them. They ran .018 to .023
You are exactly right, they are on the super soft side. The all lead Power belts are about the same. Soft as pudding on velvet.

You said
"As I’ve said several times on here, Pure Lead is NOT all Equal, Pure Lead is Given a VERY Wide Range of .015 to .035 on my Cabin Tree Dial/Chart, That is 20 Whole points, Compare that to Alloys that are Given 3 to 5 Points. A Pure Lead Bullet at the Softest end .015, is gonna Perform VERY VERY Different than a Bullet at the Top end of Pure Lead .035"

That is the thing everyone doesn't understand that doesn't have a Cabine Tree tester. There can be like I said a hard 5 and a soft 5. 5BHN being from .015 to .035 is a HUGE range. I harden my Rotometals lead to get it to the level that the BACO lead comes to the door. That .032 to .038 is a hardness that is about perfect for my 500 S&W bullets.
I had a batch of my bullets that I made that I had trouble with back in 2008. I set them aside and later I tested them. That batch was .016 to .024. Those bullets shot like crap. I got that lead from my Grandpa back around 2005 or so. As a ingot that lead measured .010 to .018 I am sure he got it when he was shooting lead pistol bullets in a club shoot in Sothern California back in the 50's and 60's.

While lead hardness is a topic and discussion in the cartridge gun circles it is seldom discussed by ML guys. The ones that do are like you and I that know hardness makes a huge difference and have the equipment to test. Most guys buy a box of bullets or round balls over the counter and have no Idea that hardness makes a difference in both accuracy and on game.

I have been compiling a data base on lead since 2008. It is interesting to see what people call "pure". Ebay lead is never "pure" and is hard as wood pecker lips.

Excellent Post Ron :lewis: Lead Hardness Swing of PURE Lead DEFINATELY makes a BIG Difference in Bullet Performance, With that 20 Point Wide Swing, it only makes sense that it would. I don’t see as much of the “Super Soft” Stuff as i do the Upper End Stuff, But The Only way to know is to Own a Hardness Tester. Any Serious Conical Shooting, Bullet Caster should own one!

Fact is, Our Muzzleloaders are NOT Speed Demons with Real Blackpowder and Subs like Pyrodex and Triple Seven, A 450 Grain Bullet being pushed with a Good STOUT Load is 1400 to 1500 Fps, 1550 with a Good Tail Wind. When you compare that to the Vast Majority of Centerfire Cartridge Guns at Typical Velocities of 2,700 to 3,100 Fps, It Shows just How Slow our Muzzleloaders really are. This is another reason that Lead Hardness is REALLY important, A bullet that is To hard (Such as 1-20 Alloy) won’t open/Mushroom much, if any on Game at our Typical Muzzleloader Velocities. And on the Contrary, a SUPER SOFT Lead Bullet at the Bottom of our Testers/Charts Could Easily Over Expand, Fragment Apart, And show PISS POOR Performance.

There is TRULY a Fine line with Lead Hardness in our Muzzleloaders, I believe you are RIGHT IN THE WHEEL HOUSE with 6-7 BHN being ideal, just a Pinch above Pure Lead. 1-40 Alloy at 8.5 is pretty darn Good, But that is as ABSOLUTE hard as I would ever trust to Expand in Game. It is Truly a Shame that they don’t make a Pre-Made Alloy in the 6-7 BHN Range, like they do 1-40, 1-30, 1-20, Lyman #2 Etc. Etc. It would Sure be nice to be able to Purchase it already Done, and not have to Deal with Mixing and Making it. The Good part about the Alloys like 1-40 for example, is it’s REPEATABILITY, They keep it in 5 points on our Testers. If you dial Rifle in with say 1-40 Alloy, You don’t have to Worry about Changes in Performance From Batch to Batch, as long as you know your Mix, and have a Hardness Tester to Confirm it, Or Purchase STAMP CERTIFIED Stuff like i get at Buffalo Arms. PURE Lead on the other Hand at 20 Points, Without a Tester you don’t know what Degree of Hardness your Pure Lead is? IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!

I know EXACTLY what you mean about Certain Rifles Requiring a Slightly hardened bullet in order to Shoot Well, My Old 1” Stainless Green Mountain LRH was one of these, That Barrel would NOT shoot a Soft Lead Bullet, like yours, it Required a Slightly hardened Bullet, then it CAME ALIVE :lewis:
 
After seeing your neat lead tester, I thought I would show you what I've built about two years ago. I don't remember ever seeing one like this, but I knew I needed to use my dial indicator and work accordingly. While it does work for what I want to know, but it's a little cruder than yours is. I used purchased round balls For the pure lead numbers and wheel weights for the hardest, And then I could test all of my lead and place the hardness in between these two readings. Well, it does work for me but it is a little crude. The only good thing is I had everything before I started so there was no cost.
Squint






P6vEGW6.jpg


Again I start out with pure and I add chilled reclaimed lead shot. I use it because I have so stinking much of it.
Anyway I add small amounts at a time. Thin I pour a bullet and cool it with my air compressor. If you water quench the bullets it will harden them if they have alloy in them.
So I cool them with air, and test. Cabine tree gives a breakdown of the numbers. There are two different charts this one matches mine.

Tester Hardness Cross Reference

Material Dial Reading SAECO Brinell

Pure Lead* .020-.030 0 5

40-1 .045-.050 5.5 8.5

30-1 .053-.056 6 9

25-1 .062-.065 6.25 9.5

20-1 .068-.070 6.5 10

10-1 .072-.074 6.75 11.5

New WW** .074-.076 7 12.5 (est)

Aged WW** .080-.083 8 14 (est)

Lyman #2 .084-.086 8.5 15

Linotype (old) .086-.090 10 22

Quenched WW# .090-.095 10.5 23-24

Mono/stereo type .095-.098 10.5-11.5 24-28

Heat treated # .098+ 12+ 32+






IMG_0181.JPGIMG_0181.JPG
 

Latest posts

Back
Top