Excuse me for my ignorance but I am puzzled and can't solve a problem. I have an Arrowhead Muzzleloader which is very accurate. Consistent .5 MOA group or better. I have only had the opportunity to shoot at a 100 yd range and sighted my gun for 300 yds for hunting as most of my shots are between 250 and 400 yds at a cattle operation. My load required that I needed 4.4 inches of elevation at 100 yards to accomplish this. I gave it 18 clicks and thought I was good to go without test firing it which was stupid on my part. I had two shots that I took, one at an exceptional buck at 250 and the second a good buck at 360. I didn't touch either one of them. After returning from the hunt I went to the range and fired at the 100 yd target and it was two feet high. This is a Leupold Vari-X 5 scope and I know it is not the scope as after returning to my 100 yd zero it was dead on. I have drained my brain trying to figure this out with no success. The only thing I can think of is perhaps that I have a 20MOA base that drastically changed my ballistics. Doesn't make sense to me either but the only thing I can come up with. I know the answer to this is sighting in at 300 yds, but can anyone offer insight that might help me understand what is going on?
Can a 20MOA Scope Base Be My Problem?
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Thank you for your kindness of response, 45-70. That is what I did and where I got the 4.4 inches of elevation from. Perhaps what would have been best would have been to sight it in 4.5 inches high at 100 vice relying totally on the scope adjustment but most people do just what I did when shooting at distances not zeroed for. Don't think the problem was the range card nor the scope and therein lies my confusion. Scope has tracked perfectly in the zeroing process.
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Your 20moa mount has is not creating your issue.
Zero the rifle dead on at 100yds and then like 45-70 stated, create your drop chart by actual shooting.
All the facts can be put into JBM and you can come out very close. You still have to shoot to verify.
Zero the rifle dead on at 100yds and then like 45-70 stated, create your drop chart by actual shooting.
All the facts can be put into JBM and you can come out very close. You still have to shoot to verify.
Thanks. As stated, I only have access to a 100 yd range and once I gain access to something a bit longer will create a drop card from actual shooting. I did use JBM to create what I thought was a drop chart but obviously I was confused. Appreciate your help Encore and I hope you are feeling better every day.
what is your velocity actual
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We won't mention it here but, I believe you remember my charge?
Here's my chart which is really close. 500yds is a little low, but you've also seen the 600yd target.
I always zero to 100yds.
Spin drift is calculated. Wind in JBM was set to zero.
Arrowhead 300gr XLD bullet with BC of .400
George, my card is very similar to yours with my velocity being 2785. 300gr XLD NS bulIet with the same BC of .400. Had my wind set at 10mph for calculation when warranted. Spin drift calculated as well. My question still is what could have me printing 2 ft high at 100 yds with a 300 yd 4.5 MOA adjustment? Your chart reflects a 4.2 MOA adjustment at 300 yds as well. The more I think about it, it can only be the scope. Next range visit I will have to see what it takes to move my POI up 4.5 inches at 100 and that should tell me everything I need to know.
BTW, thanks to your generosity in sharing your knowledge. I was right on from the start, and was able to purchase the proper accessories and equipment needed before the gun was even built. I now believe this problem to be of equipment and will confirm it at my next range visit. I will be going on a final hunt for the year either tomorrow or Thursday dependent upon this storm but will use hold over vice scope adjustments on any shots until I can rectify this problem.
BTW, thanks to your generosity in sharing your knowledge. I was right on from the start, and was able to purchase the proper accessories and equipment needed before the gun was even built. I now believe this problem to be of equipment and will confirm it at my next range visit. I will be going on a final hunt for the year either tomorrow or Thursday dependent upon this storm but will use hold over vice scope adjustments on any shots until I can rectify this problem.
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You'll have to verify your scope but, I'm still trying to wrap my head (what's left of it) around the issue. I do see the ENT today thankfully.
Do I have this right????? Originally you zeroed the rifle at 100yds, then because you would be shooting much longer ranges, made some kind of adjustment without shooting for some other zero? Now when you attempt to dial back to your original zero at 100yds, its shooting 2' high?
For the max distance you indicate of 300yds, the chart you made is going to be exceptionally close IMO. The rifle should be zeroed dead on at 100yds and those drops will work correctly, that is unless something else is amiss. Those Leupold VX5HD scopes are really great scopes. But IMO you have to use a 100yd zero, then at ranges beyond use the chart. I'm totally unaware of the VX5HD scopes, but does it have a zero stop?
Side note: Its early, not much sleep, nose and front teeth are keeping beat with my heart. So if my post has no meaning that's my excuse LOL
Do I have this right????? Originally you zeroed the rifle at 100yds, then because you would be shooting much longer ranges, made some kind of adjustment without shooting for some other zero? Now when you attempt to dial back to your original zero at 100yds, its shooting 2' high?
For the max distance you indicate of 300yds, the chart you made is going to be exceptionally close IMO. The rifle should be zeroed dead on at 100yds and those drops will work correctly, that is unless something else is amiss. Those Leupold VX5HD scopes are really great scopes. But IMO you have to use a 100yd zero, then at ranges beyond use the chart. I'm totally unaware of the VX5HD scopes, but does it have a zero stop?
Side note: Its early, not much sleep, nose and front teeth are keeping beat with my heart. So if my post has no meaning that's my excuse LOL
Your post was perfectly understandable, Encore. Really sorry to hear you haven't gained relief yet. Was hoping you were at least able to sleep my friend. Trying to be optimistic but at least every day behind you is one day closer to having this all over with and you feeling better than you have for the last few years.
Do I have this right????? Originally you zeroed the rifle at 100yds, then because you would be shooting much longer ranges, made some kind of adjustment without shooting for some other zero? Now when you attempt to dial back to your original zero at 100yds, its shooting 2' high?
Zeroed at 100, 18 click elevation adjustment for 300 yd zero. Didn't shoot gun to confirm POI. Went hunting, missed twice. Returned home and went to range and fired with the 300 yd zero and was 2 ft high at 100 yds. Scope has zero stop and I returned to the original 100 yd zero and it was dead on. So my problem was trying to understand how 18 clicks adjustment turned into 24 in high. Yes, it is a VX5HD. The only thing it can be is the scope and will confirm next visit to the range after my hunt. At least I have a good 100 yd zero and can use holdover for now. Thanks again my friend.
TJH, the 300 yd adjustment was 4.4" high at 100 yds which would translate to 13.8" at 300. 1/4MOA and 1/4" are the same thing on a 100 yd zero. Sorry if I confused you.
Do I have this right????? Originally you zeroed the rifle at 100yds, then because you would be shooting much longer ranges, made some kind of adjustment without shooting for some other zero? Now when you attempt to dial back to your original zero at 100yds, its shooting 2' high?
Zeroed at 100, 18 click elevation adjustment for 300 yd zero. Didn't shoot gun to confirm POI. Went hunting, missed twice. Returned home and went to range and fired with the 300 yd zero and was 2 ft high at 100 yds. Scope has zero stop and I returned to the original 100 yd zero and it was dead on. So my problem was trying to understand how 18 clicks adjustment turned into 24 in high. Yes, it is a VX5HD. The only thing it can be is the scope and will confirm next visit to the range after my hunt. At least I have a good 100 yd zero and can use holdover for now. Thanks again my friend.
TJH, the 300 yd adjustment was 4.4" high at 100 yds which would translate to 13.8" at 300. 1/4MOA and 1/4" are the same thing on a 100 yd zero. Sorry if I confused you.
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how did you determine what distance deer was ? should leave your scope at 100 yd zero and then make adjustment when you know exact distance of your deer or target. Don't know your scope but i would never go by clicks, dial should have MOA numbers on it
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The only thing that makes sense to me is that your scope was possibly messed up at the factory and each click is calibrated to be a bigger move than a 1/4" per click. But 18 clicks making it shoot 24" high at 100 means each click actually moved it 1.33" per click. Seems unlikely. I also think when originally sighting in you'd have immediately noticed if each click was way more than a 1/4".
When you brought it back down and verified your zero stop position was still dead on at 100, did you actually count the clicks or just bring it back to the zero stop? Could a kid or someone else possibly have messed with it before you went hunting?
The next time at the range I'd verify zero at a 100 again, and then go up 18 clicks and see if it results in being 24" high again.
When you brought it back down and verified your zero stop position was still dead on at 100, did you actually count the clicks or just bring it back to the zero stop? Could a kid or someone else possibly have messed with it before you went hunting?
The next time at the range I'd verify zero at a 100 again, and then go up 18 clicks and see if it results in being 24" high again.
how did you determine what distance deer was?
A rangefinder... the scope is a top of the line Leupold where it is 1/4 MOA at 100 yds which is the very same thing as 1/4 in at 100 yds. Appreciate you trying to help me out.
Renegadehunter, Now that I have brought this to the board for discussion I have come to the realization that the only thing it can be is the scope. No children around and I verified several times after the misses that my elevation reading was 4.5 MOA. I didn't count the clicks but verified several times that I had only gone up 4.5 MOA. I also verified that there was only four clicks per MOA but did dial directly back to zero stop. The next time I go to the range which will probably be next week sometime, I will check into the accuracy of the elevation turret. I probably won't go up but 4 clicks and that should tell me everything. Luke at Arrowhead did an exceptional job sighting my rifle in before sending it to me and I only had to adjust 1/4" up and 1/4" left to acommodate for the difference in my hold vs his. I have no doubt he would have noticed any discrepancy and that is another reason why I questioned if the 20MOA scope base could have been the culprit. It is the first I have had and the only variable I haven't had experience with. I have a very strong suspicion that I will be sending the scope back to Leupold. I am most thankful to all who have taken their time to assist me and I want to thank you for taking your time as well.
A rangefinder... the scope is a top of the line Leupold where it is 1/4 MOA at 100 yds which is the very same thing as 1/4 in at 100 yds. Appreciate you trying to help me out.
Renegadehunter, Now that I have brought this to the board for discussion I have come to the realization that the only thing it can be is the scope. No children around and I verified several times after the misses that my elevation reading was 4.5 MOA. I didn't count the clicks but verified several times that I had only gone up 4.5 MOA. I also verified that there was only four clicks per MOA but did dial directly back to zero stop. The next time I go to the range which will probably be next week sometime, I will check into the accuracy of the elevation turret. I probably won't go up but 4 clicks and that should tell me everything. Luke at Arrowhead did an exceptional job sighting my rifle in before sending it to me and I only had to adjust 1/4" up and 1/4" left to acommodate for the difference in my hold vs his. I have no doubt he would have noticed any discrepancy and that is another reason why I questioned if the 20MOA scope base could have been the culprit. It is the first I have had and the only variable I haven't had experience with. I have a very strong suspicion that I will be sending the scope back to Leupold. I am most thankful to all who have taken their time to assist me and I want to thank you for taking your time as well.
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I'd run that dial up and down a few times, put it back to the zero stop and send a couple. It should stack them right in the dot on a LARGE piece of cardboard. Dial it up 4moa and send two more. They should be exactly 4" high. Then run it up to 8moa and send two, it should be 8" high. Back it down to 4moa and it should be at 4" high.
If that scope does that, there's nothing wrong with the scope. My friend, I'd be more inclined then to believe it may have been operator error
If that scope does that, there's nothing wrong with the scope. My friend, I'd be more inclined then to believe it may have been operator error
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20moa rail just allows you to use more of your vertical adjustment in your scope.
You’re confusing yourself if you don’t zero at 100 and use a drop chart like has been stated above.
Range, turn dial to correct MOA for distance, shoot - It’s not hard.
I don’t know your MV or weight bullet - so I’ve guessed with a 300gr at 2300fps. I’m thinking you’re LOW.
Note: I used 300yds as the zero to see where your bullet is at 100. (+8”) . This is the actual bullets path to 300yds.
You’re confusing yourself if you don’t zero at 100 and use a drop chart like has been stated above.
Range, turn dial to correct MOA for distance, shoot - It’s not hard.
I don’t know your MV or weight bullet - so I’ve guessed with a 300gr at 2300fps. I’m thinking you’re LOW.
Note: I used 300yds as the zero to see where your bullet is at 100. (+8”) . This is the actual bullets path to 300yds.
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Rick, in reality he should have posted in the SML section, as his velocity is nearly identical to the chart above I posted. That's why in my post I stated that charges should not be mentioned.
