CHP 4 The Hotrod Rifle

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RBinAR

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Now that you have your smokeless muzzle loader have you though how you might much gun you have purchased? We discussed how some improvements could be made in the chapter on practical loads. We will now explore what can be done to the rifle itself.

Let me start by saying a smokeless muzzle loader need not be more than the ?standard issue? variety. I see shooters expressing they see no need to have anything more than what they have and I can certainly understand that. These items and possibilities are what I?d call options for the ?Hot Rod? rifle and I no more expect them to be everybody?s choice than I think the average guy would buy a Dodge Viper.

There are some shooter?s who?d like a little more. Maybe only one or two of the choices might appeal to them. Perhaps you are the ?overkill is just right? type of shooter and think this is just a start. At any rate here are some smokeless muzzle loader modifications.

The rifle available to hot rodded is the 10ML. If you were going to start with an after market rifle you?d have what you want done during construction not afterward so this will be about the Savage. And by far the most wanted modification for the 10ML is the third pillar. This modification eliminates the need for a special breech plug tools as well as providing action bedding at the same time.

I did not start the third pillar (I guess the Balls did that) but I have for some time touted it as a basic, cheap, modification that almost anyone would consider an up-grade to the factory 10ML. Besides the other advantages the third pillar is very inconspicuous and looks as it belongs or maybe as if the rifle belongs with a third pillar.

try1-copy.jpg

The basic idea of a third pillar is simple. The problem is the holes in the receiver and stock must center within a tight tolerance or the work will look and function raggedly

Besides the third pillar the next most common request would be some type of trigger work. The new accu-trigger rifles have an exceptional factory trigger. Still they seldom adjust to less than three pounds of pull. Ways of dealing with this include an after market trigger which the shooter could install himself for between $60 and $120 or have the trigger adjusted. Proper work could get the accu-trigger to between two and two and a half pounds of pull for $35 to $40.

I will tell any shooter straight up and point blank! Because of the exceptional safety provisions the accu-trigger I would never replace one with an after market trigger unless directly instructed so. I don?t rate the accu-trigger as a target grade trigger but the 10ML is not a target rifle either.

If you want to dig a little deeper into what makes a rifle work a good place to start with is the recoil lug. Many shooting problems can be traced to a recoil lug issues. Often bedding can help recoil lug to stock contact but not in every case. That is why you will find most target style rifles with a precision recoil lug.

If someone was to ask me I would certainly state an after market recoil lug (like the SSS) would make a lot of sense if accuracy was the prime goal. A consideration of the cost must be made however. The lug itself is not much but the barrel must be removed to install it. It takes time to remove a barrel and re-install it correctly. If for some chance the barrel was off already off I think the addition of a machined flat lug is mandatory.
lug.jpg

If you have the barrel off the rifle adding a machined flat recoil lug is a must. You can color the lug (left) or leave it in the white.

The next consideration is a barrel. Since a quality barrel is likely to cost as much as the rifle itself (all things considered) most people will be trying to get the most out of their factory supplied model. A few things can be said about that approach that may help.

Factory 10ML barrels can come in many shooting conditions. In fact I?ve seen a few that would not be what I?d call shooting condition. But because your barrel is rough or only shoots on the verge of what you call accurate does not mean there is nothing that can be done.

If you listen around the message board long enough sooner or later you?ll hear someone say they have polished their barrel. The 10ML is one of the few rifles out there where polishing (as opposed to lapping) can often be a good idea. The key is to know when polishing is needed. More likely a shooter will resort to polishing when something else is wrong. If you don?t know all the parts to your rifle are functioning it is likely really bad accuracy is something other than the barrel needing polished.

Rifles that need polished usually give a feeling of a zipper when the sabot is loaded. Some are less noticeable than others but most have an odd feel. A rifle might have a rough edge on the muzzle. Many of these types of barrel problems can be polished away. Actually what I mean by polishing is more related to barrel break-in than custom work but you have to keep in mind the bullet is plastic. A plastic bullet has much less frictional wear than copper so it takes many more shots to do any barrel smoothing. That alone makes polishing useful because most barrels shoot better with some wear-in.

One word of caution: Barrel polishing may not help accuracy if it is being reduced by another factor besides the barrel.

There are still steps we can take to add to the rifle. A good recoil pad may be as important an addition as the average shooter can make. If the shooter is uncomfortable pulling the trigger the best rifle will seldom over come the problem. Choosing a recoil pad that really works is often the difference between everything working and just the rifle working. Most the brand names work but I feel Limb Saver is the top of the food chain.

While considering a stock one may as well decide on a custom model. I have mounted 10MLs on a laminate with Weatherby style cheek piece at times. This stock also does away with the silly ramrod spring found on the factory stock. It maxes out at the same weight as the factory woodn but some skeleton details will lower it some.

As it stands now I?m informed that there is hope of a laminate stock for the 10ML that will weigh 22 to 24 ounces. That along with some judicious frame and barrel contours should bring a rifle home in the 7 to 7 ? pound weight range.

Finally in our quest for a hot rod gun we need to consider a replacement barrel. You wouldn?t talk about hot cars without considering an engine and you can?t mention a great rifle without talk of the barrel. Since we spoke of the factory barrel first here we speak of aftermarket sky is the limit tubes.

I?ve made it known already that if I were to change barrels I?d change calibers also. In a BP or sub shooting rifle one might have some arguments for the energy, bullet, and range of a 50 caliber rifle. Shooting smokeless powder that?s all for naught. Smokeless has such an advantage over BP and subs the power and range is not determined (greatly at least) by the bore but determined by the load. Since all smokeless shooting in the last 140 years has been a move toward lighter weight bullets at speed I see no reason to change the goal in a muzzle loader.

In a 45 caliber barrel the 200 grain bullet can be shot accurately between 2600 and 2750fps with ease. That?s about a 200 to 250fps speed faster than the average ?hot? load from the 50 caliber barrel and it gets there with the same or less recoil. Now does everyone see why I prefer the ?small block? in my hot rod gun?

A rifle with a precision high grade barrel (like the Pac-Nor match) machine flat recoil lug, fine trigger, cushioned recoil pad, third pillar, and bedded custom stock may seem like a lot but it is not all that can be done (or has been done) to a rifle. On some rifles when a lot of work is expected I?ll start by taking he entire rifle apart. Including the trigger, safety, and pressed housings. Then before assembly I?ll true the receiver for roundness and face flatness in a lathe. I?ll form flat any of the pressed housing parts that may be rounded and remove any burrs from all the parts.

While I?m reassembling the rifle I want to make sure the barrel nut is flat surfaced and any rubbing parts are adjusted for clearance. I take extra care in the safety and trigger guard area as the shooter will feel immediate feed back from rubbing parts in this area. Finally I try to make sure the finish and fit are true, straight, and unscratched. If I do all my work correctly it?s a pretty good rifle.
hotrod-copy.jpg

This rifle belongs to me and I plan to keep it despite many offers to take it. As you can see it has some obvious differences to a factory model. The barrel is a Pac-Nor 26" 1 in 22 twist 45 caliber bore. The stock is a John Okubu thumb-hole with a generous amount of hand work to lighten the weight. Most all the options listed have been used including, 2 pound, no creep, no over travel, trigger, flat recoil lug, third pillar, and Limb Saver recoil pad. Total weight is 8 pounds and a few ounces.

This rifle includes things not even mentioned in the chapter including all trued components (meaning I blue-printed every part), special breech plug that does not require a vent liner, and my own special bolt release and bolt modification that allows me to release the bolt without loosening any of the three receiver screws.

I seldom fire sabots from this rifle as I've found it will shoot a 10 shot group with the Parker Hydracon 300 grain bullet into .88 inch. But if I did speeds well past 2750fps are available.
 
What a FANTASTIC post! So many questions have been answered here. Thanks for such an informative post Rick. Now I have a question... :shock:

What is the weight/contour of the PacNor .45 barrel compared to the OEM 10ML-II?
 
big6x6 said:
What a FANTASTIC post! So many questions have been answered here. Thanks for such an informative post Rick. Now I have a question... :shock:

What is the weight/contour of the PacNor .45 barrel compared to the OEM 10ML-II?

It depends on the contour. Those on a budget get a factory contoured barrel that's about 8 ounces heavier than standard. Those who don't mind some extra machine work can get a barrel that's 6 ounces lighter.

I wasn't supposed to say because it's still in the development process but working with John Okubu he says he can produce a laminated stock that weighs 22 to 24 ounces. Adding some properly placed receiver and barrel cuts I think the overall weight could be about 7 pounds 6 ounces
 
hot rod ML

RbinAr

I found your article very ineresting again, I have some questions for you?

you say that light bullets and speed are the wave in smokeless (rifles) and you see no need to change that in ML.

I see it very different especially if we are talking hot rod ML!
you can push your ML to 2700+ fps but those light 200-300 gr bullets will be your down fall on long range shooting, Those light bullets with there low BC and small berring surface do not make for a good long range combo.

in the longrange hot rod rifle community its as big as you can shoot and as fast as you can push it! High B.C bullets fast!!

I know i am not telling you something you dont know already just wondering why you choose to go that route.

thanks
 
Re: hot rod ML

wildworks said:
RbinAr

I found your article very ineresting again, I have some questions for you?

I see it very different especially if we are talking hot rod ML!
you can push your ML to 2700+ fps but those light 200-300 gr bullets will be your down fall on long range shooting, Those light bullets with there low BC and small berring surface do not make for a good long range combo.

in the longrange hot rod rifle community its as big as you can shoot and as fast as you can push it! High B.C bullets fast!!
thanks

What you say is correct so my answer is not to say I'm right and some one is wrong. But I would like for you to look at the smokeless muzzle loader as a whole rather than in the singular.

Long distance shooting is a subject that could fill a book and un-like my friends in Germany I'm not enough an engineer to tell you the state of the art in 2000 meter sniper rifles.

These rifles shoot large caliber (generally 40 to 50 caliber) bullets to distance and rely on the bullet to hold energy to range. Rifles like the 50 BMG and 408 Chey Tac will really reach out there but think about the platform they are shot from and tell me how that relates to sports rifles. The disparity is especially large in rifles designed for game and not targets.

A game getting rifle still has to be portable enough to carry and though that carry may be 50 feet it could also be 5 miles in rough country. So a bullet of high BC might also relate to a bullet that kicks too much for any speed because the rifle can't weigh 13 pounds to absorb recoil.

So the history of smokeless shooting has so far been reduced caliber and bullet weight because the better efficiency of smokeless powder can produce enough speed that a heavy bullet is un-necessary. In the late 19th century guns were growing here and elsewhere. Rifles were in use for long range shooting with till then monster caliber bullets. The 45-120 and 50-110 buffalo guns were primitive attempts at long range weapons.

The reasons there was a move from these monster calibers are still with us today. Most hunters are best served with a rifle that is not designed for maximum range but will shoot to a respectible range while not hampering the shooter with a weapon that's too heavy to carry or recoils so much it ruins accuracy.

To make a long story short, shooting a 30-06 with a 150 or 180 grain bullet makes a lot more sense than shooting a 460 Weatherby magnum with a 510 grain solid if the common target is deer. Even if the 458 bullet has a great advantage in BC.

So a sporting rifle caliber and bullet weight favor the smaller caliber and faster bullet on light game. The same is true in a smokeless muzzle loader just as it was in the early development of smokeless case cartridges.

It takes more to explain the entire situation than I've listed but I think I could sum it up by saying a hunter would be better served by a 200 grain 40 caliber sst at 2750fps than a 400 grain custom bullet with a BC of .34 at 2500fps. Especially is this so if the rifle that shoots the loads weight the same in both calibers.

Another factor is how long is long range? My friend Dave Daub regularly shoots the 200 grain bullet into about 4" (more times than not less then 4") at 300 yards. That may not work for a sniper rifle but for a muzzle loader 300 yards seems to work for most folks.
 
Guns

Rb

I do fully understand all that you are saying about light bullets, as a custom bullet maker i see that trend for the common ML shooter!

But this is not common ML shooting! you have explained in great detail a great deer hunting setup for the average guy, but we where talking about hot rod ML here not average shooting. that is why i asked you that question. To me a hot rod is pushing the limits in gun and bullets without limitations!

again range is subjective to the person shooting it, but for this post i would say that a 4 " group at 300 is just average it is +1 MOA. He would tighten those groups up with a higher BC bullet! a 200 gr bullet is just not made to shoot that distance efficently with its super low bc and small bering surface. Like you say though its great for the average guy but it isnt a hot rod!!!

I enjoy your input on the subject !

thanks
 
Re: Guns

wildworks said:
Rb
I do fully understand all that you are saying about light bullets, as a custom bullet maker i see that trend for the common ML shooter!

But this is not common ML shooting! you have explained in great detail a great deer hunting setup for the average guy, but we where talking about hot rod ML here not average shooting. that is why i asked you that question. To me a hot rod is pushing the limits in gun and bullets without limitations!

thanks

Well I need the help of a custom bullet maker. The problem we all face is bullet weight compared to recoil. I think for example if we speak of the Sectional density of a given bullet we would be better off than trying to compare them in another way. After all if two bullets are of the comparative same shape the one with the higher SD is more aerodynamic.

It so happens the next rifle barrel development will probably allow for the shooting of a .40 caliber bullet in a sabot-less configuration. I think adding a sabot-less option is an important step because the plastic sabot adds nothing to the accuracy of a load while at times (especially when the barrel is warm) causing havoc.

Let's see what might happen. I want my bullet designer to make me a 300 grain .40 caliber bullet with about the same aerodynamic qualities as your 375 grain 45 caliber bullet. Since they have the same SD I think the BC would be pretty close as well.

Since you've already made the rifle I can simply copy it and add my .408 caliber barrel. I might add an option or two of my own because I want to be sure I can get to 41,000psi pressure without bulging primers.

The Hodgdon load data for the 405 Winchester says I can hope to get about 2400fps from a 300 grain bullet and a 24" barrel at a 41,000psi pressure limit. Using this exact load I could count on an extra 25 fps (probably closer to 35fps but let's err low if we err) for every extra inch of barrel. 25 times 11 = 261fps or an expected muzzle velocity of 2661fps. Actually I'd think that was wimpy for a "hotrod" gun and go to a slower powder to the point where I could raise the maximum load capacity beyond the 60 or so grains that would fit in the 405 case to about 75 or 80 grains in a proper load. Now the expected bullet speed would be about 2750fps or more.

Considering the fact our bullets are basically the same in BC and SD things down range are looking good for the 40 caliber bullet. That's especially so if you consider the muzzle velocity for the 40 caliber bullet is 250fps faster and the recoil generated to disrupt the shooter was 16% less.

I know you can raise the muzzle velocity on the 45 caliber rifle to match the 40, but not without a LOT more recoil. I also know you can just build a bigger rifle to absorb the hit, but not without coming up with some money.

Big bullets fast are not the sole facet of a hotrod gun.

Besides you can't play! That's right this is my field and I make the rules (he said with in a childish voice) . Hotrods are what the hotrod club says they are. Being the sole authority of the club I am declaring this a "stock" car based chapter of hotrod guns. So...

1 No guns over 10 pounds (without scope)
2 No barrels longer than 28"
3 No custom ammunition: all components have to be available over the counter.
4 Rifle has to be legal for hunting game of deer size.

Now what's a hotrod gun???
 
RB

GOOD ONE!!! Changing your rules on the fly!!!! LOL!

Now for your 40 cal 300 gr,bullet

you would have a slightly higher BC with your 300 gr 40 cal bullet, i would also give the bullet a steeper ogive than what my 375 has its a 4 i think we need a 8- 10 on the 40 cal. as well as the Rebated boattail. it will give us a much higher BC being more areo dynamic and longer and being.051 smaller giving it a better SD.!

I also like the sabotless Idea.

I would be up for such a build! your thinking along the same lines as me on this 40CAL!!! and i am always looking for the next step!

Remember that Big bullets fast dosnt mean 50 cal gun and 400 gr bullets!
Shooting a 300 gr pill in a 40 cal is exactly Big bullets fast!
I should have been more spacific in the discription saying big bullets for Cal. Fast!!!

when do we start with the bulid??? I will take awhile to get the New 40 cal dies made!!!!!!!!!!
 
wildworks said:
RB

GOOD ONE!!! Changing your rules on the fly!!!! LOL!
I should have been more spacific in the discription saying big bullets for Cal. Fast!!!

when do we start with the bulid??? I will take awhile to get the New 40 cal dies made!!!!!!!!!!

We are on the same page now about bullets I was just shooting another caliber.

The 40 caliber is about to become reality. Pac-Nor will have the first to me in January I plan to shoot it for some load development tests then it will be off to Steve White who deserves more credit than I can express for his help in the development of all sub 50 caliber shooting so far.

Progress will go slow from there as I do with any project. However if accuracy and speed hold true to promise as I think they might barrels will be ready for others somewhere in the late spring.
 
barrel specs

RB

what are the 40 cal barrel specs?

length

contour

twist

gun action used? (I assume from all your posts savage!)
 
Re: barrel specs

wildworks said:
RB

what are the 40 cal barrel specs?

length

contour

twist

gun action used? (I assume from all your posts savage!)

The barrel is .408 grooves and .400 lands it has 6 lands and grooves equal spaced. The twist is 1 in 16

It can be any length to 40" but past 34 inches it's an extra $25 an inch.

I would put it on a Savage because it's very strong and stiff compared to almost any other possibility.

The contour is not set in stone. There are many to chose from including straight.
 

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