Copper ML with Synthetic stock

[GM54-120]

I applaud Cooper for sticking their neck out and building a nice rifle BUT as Grouse said, a NULA cost about the same. A NULA is far more versatile and the weight is 2nd to none. Its a complete custom build for well under $2000 with one of the best Douglas Prem XX ML barrels ive ever used.

IMO Copper used the wrong action for the M22. I told them from the start to use their 22 rimfire action just like Melvin used for his M209. You dont need a long CF action or even a short CF action for a ML and the weight savings would be substantial using a rimfire action.

If you really want a beefier action look at a Rem 40X rimfire action for the base of a custom ML. It might have been Gunwerks that offered something similar but their ML is REALLY expensive.

The Gunwerks action looks very similar to a 40X rimfire clone.

Team10X and Stiller sell a similar action for around $800 but will need major changes to the bolt.

The word "elegant" comes to mind.

 

[Fmfdred56]

Didn't mean to turn this thread into a cooper bashing thread. They really are beautiful

 

[fishhawk2700]

If you post it.....They will bash!

 

[Hntndad]

This was in no way a bash. I'm just telling you what they told me. Take it for what it's worth.
Its a beautiful muzzleloader. I was willing to spend the $. The end game for me was the discussion about accuracy. Cooper told me that basically they do not feel that the average shooter is much better then 2-1/2" Moa. They feel that the firearm is much more capable then that but if they guarantee better accuracy, they risk having to deal with more firearms being sent back because the shooter can't shoot 1 or 1-1/2 moa.
My opinion was, your average shooter isn't going to spend $2000 on a muzzleloader. And if they do, you better stand behind it.
I told him I was going to pass on the purchase because of this. His response was, I'm sorry we are not the muzzleloader for you.
That target pictured in the add is not 100 yards. I believe it's coopers customary close range. I love coopers. Many friends own thier cf rifles and they all shoot! But in my humble opinion, they are dropping the ball with thier Accuracy guarantee. Especially when knight and others gaurantee better accuracy at 1/3-1/2 the cost.

 

[Squeeze]

What barrels were cooper using? I would be confident with some tinkering you could find the flavor it likes. They probably don't want to guarantee because there's always the guy who will stubbornly insist on using some obscure formula load, and say "it always shot well in my old _____" I got some guns with some pretty sketchy abused barrels that will still shoot MOA with certain recipes.. Unless the barrel is a true manufacturing mess, it will shoot

 

[Hntndad]

Wilson barrels. And I agree for the most part. They would have sold me a rifle if they guaranteed 1 or 1-1/2" accuracy, backed thier test target up to 100 yards, used the load of thier choice and fired a 3 round group. Then there are no questions

Gordy did it with my Knight master hunter years ago. The one I purchased wouldn't do much better then 2 - 2-1/2" with solid load developement. Sent it back. 2 weeks later I'm shooting groups in the .8's with 150 gr 777 pellets. (That's what he said he tested this gun with). This was with a rifle that cost $1000 ballpark at the time. Same barrel. He swapped out the stock. I've since pillar and glassed the stock and it's a hammer.

Anything can happen with firearm manufacturing. Even the best barrel manufactures make mistakes. I'm just not satisfied with baseball size group guarantees for that $$$$

 

[fishhawk2700]

This was in no way a bash. I'm just telling you what they told me. Take it for what it's worth.
Its a beautiful muzzleloader. I was willing to spend the $. The end game for me was the discussion about accuracy. Cooper told me that basically they do not feel that the average shooter is much better then 2-1/2" Moa. They feel that the firearm is much more capable then that but if they guarantee better accuracy, they risk having to deal with more firearms being sent back because the shooter can't shoot 1 or 1-1/2 moa.
My opinion was, your average shooter isn't going to spend $2000 on a muzzleloader. And if they do, you better stand behind it.
I told him I was going to pass on the purchase because of this. His response was, I'm sorry we are not the muzzleloader for you.
That target pictured in the add is not 100 yards. I believe it's coopers customary close range. I love coopers. Many friends own thier cf rifles and they all shoot! But in my humble opinion, they are dropping the ball with thier Accuracy guarantee. Especially when knight and others gaurantee better accuracy at 1/3-1/2 the cost.

I don't think your original post was a bash at all. Your concerns about guaranteed accuracy are valid. I also think Cooper is smart business wise not guaranteeing MOA or sub MOA performance for the reason's they state. IMO, any mfg, that makes unrealistic accuracy guarantee's are doing so for the sake of sales, and believe me, its not because these other mfg's rifles are not accurate. Enter "Average Muzzloader", we'll call him AM for the sake of my fingers. AM buys a quality ML from mfg "X". He buys a 12.00 set of rings, a 90.00 Tasco scope, uses cheap bullets, crappy powder. He then tries to sight the rifle in his back yard, off a card table, resting it on a rolled up hoodie, at 30 yards. AM now sends his quality ML back to mfg "X" because it wont shoot! Everybody needs to remember, that inrealistic "guarantee" is included in the price of the rifle.

If I was in the market for a high end ML, and the Cooper caught my eye. I would have no qualms about buying one.

 

[Grouse]

If you post it.....They will bash!

Hntndad Posted his honest findings when talking with Cooper rifles in a phone conversation. The information he supplied would be the first thing I would consider now before buying one. How good is the customer support?? And I would ask some of the questions he did, and if I got the same answers I would feel the same way.

Your reply is exactly why some people just don't post anything.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I wouldn't guarantee the accuracy of any rifle, because 98% of shooters can't shoot beyond 50% of the rifle's actual potential.

 

[dbowling]

Exactly this, most people are horrible shots or haven't shot enough to become decent shots, either way they never can use a gun to its full potential.

I wouldn't guarantee the accuracy of any rifle, because 98% of shooters can't shoot beyond 50% of the rifle's actual potential.

 

[Grouse]

Exactly this, most people are horrible shots or haven't shot enough to become decent shots, either way they never can use a gun to its full potential.

I wouldn't guarantee the accuracy of any rifle, because 98% of shooters can't shoot beyond 50% of the rifle's actual potential.

Well...you guys can say people can't shoot all you want and I disagree. What happens is people just don't under stand load development. This includes CF and Muzzleloaders as well. It's like the guy that says I was told to use three pellets and a 250grn bullet and the gun will shoot. Pellets are about the last powder form you should use in a ML. Once they figure it all out they can shoot. Then excitement takes over in the field and you miss. That's a learning curve as well. I think all people can accomplish what they want/need to when they put there mind to it.

 

[Hntndad]

Thanks Grouse...
Listen guys. Let's be realistic. The Cooper caught my eye over the summer. I was ready to make a purchase and I didn't like what I was told. Cooper is a "custom" manufacturer. They produce fantastic firearms. Are they winning benchrest or fclass? No. But.... they are producing custom manufactured firearms, with thier action and thier Wilson barrels one at a time.

We are taking about muzzleloaders. However, I have to say that any average joe can spend the $$$ on a custom and if it doesn't shoot, a gunsmith, (Who is WAAAAY busier then Cooper) will take and look at it, shoot it for groups and send the rifle and target back to you and tell you to learn how to shoot. Any and I mean ANY smith worth a darn will stand behind his work. All cooper has to do is stand behind thier work. I was told if it shoots 2-1/2 moa then it's good enough for them.. So, I said no thanks.

Let's be realistic, who is going to spend $1800 ++. And put on junk optics and rings and try to develops loads off the hood of the Hoopty mobile??? All they have to do is shoot a standard load of thier choice at 100 yards, gaurantee 1-1/2" groups, send you the target and there will be no argument. If you decide to put a paper towel roll on top of the action and develop loads off the back of a horse....then no one can help you.
Spend 1000$ on a knight ( A NON custom manufacturer) and you WILL get a gaurantee better then Coopers. Can't shoot for ****?? Send it to knight like I did almost 20 years ago and a guy like Gordy will verify it's accuracy, correct any issues or send you the target and tell you to practice. It's about customer service. I didn't get any warm fuzzies talking to Cooper and ill be damned if I spend $2000 and risk getting stuck with not being satisfied.

 

[Hntndad]

I wouldn't guarantee the accuracy of any rifle, because 98% of shooters can't shoot beyond 50% of the rifle's actual potential.

That is a very true statement. For the average shooter buying the average off the shelf firearm. If you were a builder I'm sure you would stand behind your work. If i built someone a custom rifle and they called and said it doesn't shoot I would have a conversation to see if we could resolve it with advice. Still doesn't shoot? Send it to me. If I get it to shoot, it's coming back with verification and some friendly advice. If I can't get it to shoot, I'm finding out why. The bedding gets a check, chamber get a check, the action gets a check. Trust me....even Bartlien and Krieger produce tomato stakes now and again.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Exactly this, most people are horrible shots or haven't shot enough to become decent shots, either way they never can use a gun to its full potential.

I wouldn't guarantee the accuracy of any rifle, because 98% of shooters can't shoot beyond 50% of the rifle's actual potential.

Well...you guys can say people can't shoot all you want and I disagree. What happens is people just don't under stand load development. This includes CF and Muzzleloaders as well. It's like the guy that says I was told to use three pellets and a 250grn bullet and the gun will shoot. Pellets are about the last powder form you should use in a ML. Once they figure it all out they can shoot. Then excitement takes over in the field and you miss. That's a learning curve as well. I think all people can accomplish what they want/need to when they put there mind to it.

Surprising.......
If you stop to think about it, maybe the reason most can't shoot beyond 50% of the rifle's actual potential, is partially because of the bold part in your quote. Yet you disagree with us guys?
The majority of average muzzleloader shooters are an "extended season" hunter. They'll put the bare minimum into it, expecting to get the maximum out of it. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Smyrnagc]

“The majority of average muzzleloader shooters are an "extended season" hunter. They'll put the bare minimum into it, expecting to get the maximum out of it. It doesn't work that way”

That is pretty accurate for here in Tennessee. Our ML season is two weeks before rifle season and what I see is recreational hunters wanting to put the bow up and get a rifle in their hands. Grab a CVA Wolf at Walmart for $150, get some pellets and powerbelts and sight it in to hit a 6" pie plate at 50-75 yards. The crazy part is that a ton of good does and bucks are shot with this very formula. It is what it is but for me, I am glad they are at least participating in the sport.

 

[Hntndad]

Exactly this, most people are horrible shots or haven't shot enough to become decent shots, either way they never can use a gun to its full potential.

Well...you guys can say people can't shoot all you want and I disagree. What happens is people just don't under stand load development. This includes CF and Muzzleloaders as well. It's like the guy that says I was told to use three pellets and a 250grn bullet and the gun will shoot. Pellets are about the last powder form you should use in a ML. Once they figure it all out they can shoot. Then excitement takes over in the field and you miss. That's a learning curve as well. I think all people can accomplish what they want/need to when they put there mind to it.

Surprising.......
If you stop to think about it, maybe the reason most can't shoot beyond 50% of the rifle's actual potential, is partially because of the bold part in your quote. Yet you disagree with us guys?
The majority of average muzzleloader shooters are an "extended season" hunter. They'll put the bare minimum into it, expecting to get the maximum out of it. It doesn't work that way.

I agree and respect with both of your opinions! Most people can't shoot to 1/2 of a rifles capability. Most do not understand load developement. Most don't have proper shooting or bench technique for that matter. And most just shoot enough to sight in, verify before the season and hunt.
Yes they do put the bare minimum into it. Expect the most. That's a fair enough assessment. Keep in mind though, please, these SAME people are NOT spending $1800+ on a muzzleloader. This is about the cooper muzzleloader. Not the average guy and his average off the shelf rifle. None of these average people are going to buy this rifle. Your "average" hunter isn't going to spend $2000++ on a custom rifle.

I'll put it into perspective for you. "Mr. Cooper, my current $1000 knight muzzleloader shoots in the .8s after proper load developement. I shoot year round, am a varmint hunter and attend local competitive matches. You state that you feel confident your rifle will shoot much better with proper load developement yet only stand behind a very meager 2-1/2 Moa gaurantee. What if, after proper load developement, this rifle is only capable of 2 - 2-1/2 moa. Am I able to send you this rifle.?" "Mr. Kevin, no... we only Gaurantee 2 1/2 Moa". "For 1800$??? Thanks but no thanks....".

 

[Squeeze]

I gotta agree with that. 2-1/2" is all they will say? If it were my money, and customer service was pretty much pulled off the table. Well there's plenty of other options waiting out there.
Any of these small one at a time custom boys will treat you better than that.

 

[Hntndad]

I gotta agree with that. 2-1/2" is all they will say? If it were my money, and customer service was pretty much pulled off the table. Well there's plenty of other options waiting out there.
Any of these small one at a time custom boys will treat you better than that.

Exactly!!! :yeah:

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

Hello Forumites,

My apologies for being absent from the forum for so long. I noticed this thread after it already had two pages and thought I'd chime in.

Well for starters, our official accuracy guarantee for the M22 ML is 2" at 100 yards. That is nowhere near the best it will shoot. During our R&D of the rifle we fired every combination of projectile and propellant that we could lay hands on. We also used high quality mounts/optics as well as very inexpensive mounts/optics. We had very experienced muzzleloaders as well as complete novices loading and shooting them. We discovered that frankly, ANYONE shooting just about ANYTHING could obtain the 2" groups at 100 yards. Most of our ML's out in the world are easily sub MOA and some are legitimately approaching half MOA. We made a decision to make the guarantee to the lowest common denominator.

I am aware that the M22 CF action was not the optimal action to use for a ML. It was selected because it was the one that would require the least amount of modification and be most similar in dimensions and feel to our already existing CF rifles. We were never trying to create a light weight rifle or revolutionize the ML industry. These are some of the reasons that we use standard 209 primers, do not use smokeless, & are 1-28 twist.

I know that some members here aren't fans of TB. I have no issue with that as they are entitled to their opinions. TB is practically in our back yard and it made perfect sense to reach out to him. He is not an employee of our company though we (along with many other companies) do help sponsor his web page. We have no deal with him that says that others can't review the rifles. John Haviland who writes for Wolfe Publishing (and others) has also published a review (the magazine it's in escapes me at the moment). We would welcome any other bona fide writers or "guntubers" to review one.

The rifles use barrels made by The Wilson Arms Co. in CT as do our CF rifles. The prototype rifles (including my personal) used Green Mountain barrels and frankly, they don't shoot as good as the rifles with Wilson barrels. Someday I will rebarrel mine, I am just too busy right now to do it.

I have obtained a few 458 1-20 twist barrels for R&D purposes. As soon as time permits I'll play with them and perhaps we will offer that bore/twist. I welcome your opinions on that.

As far as customer service goes, ours is second to none. I myself used to work in customer service here and know the folks who work there very well. We handle every customer service issue on a case by case basis and are very easy to get along with. Please do not have any concerns about customer service.

I hope I have addressed all of the concerns brought up in this thread. If I have missed any, please let me know & I will be happy to assist. Please know that I can also be contacted directly if you desire.

 

[long shot]

why does everything have to be custom.