CVA Mountain Rifle info

[Idaholewis]

Credit for below goes to “Walks Alone” on the Muzzleloading Forum, This is where i got most of my information about them, This guy did an AWESOME Job putting this together, :yeah: Hopefully he doesn’t mind me sharing it here.

Here’s a start at clearing up some of the hearsay and speculation and memory errors on the early CVA Mountain rifles. These specifications are taken right from early CVA product catalogs and ads that I have in my possession or have photos of. So I suggest that they can be considered as printed documentation that approximates the way it really was. The ads included at the bottom are just for interest.

Per 1975 CVA Catalog:
No Mountain Rifle are offered yet by CVA.

Per 1977 CVA Catalog:
Mountain Rifle Models:
KA715 45 cal percussion kit $109.95
KA716 50 cal percussion kit $109.95

PR405 45 cal percussion rifle $159.95
PR406 50 cal percussion rifle $159.95

Specifications
Made in the USA
Lock: Engraved percussion style ”“ adjustable sear engagement ”“ fly and bridle.
Stock: American maple with fully formed cheekpiece.
Barrel: 45 or 50 cal ”“ 32” octagon ”“ 15/16” across the flats ”“ hooked breech with two barrel tenons ”“ rifled 1 turn in 66” for patched ball accuracy.
Triggers: Double set, will fire both set and unset.
Sights: German silver blade front ”“ screw adjustable dovetail rear.
Finnish: Rich brown steel on finished rifle ”“ German silver patchbox and wedge plates ”“ plus pewter-type nose cap.
Accessories: Stainless steel nipple ”“ hardwood ramrod ”“ cleaning jag
Overall Length: 48”
Weight: 8 lbs.

ID Notes: Made in USA marked barrels; patchbox installed with 4 screws; thimbles are hexagon; hardwood ramrod has pewter-type ends.

There are no Big Bore MR’s listed in this catalog.


Per 1979 CVA Catalog:
Mountain Rifle Models:
KA715 45 cal perc kit $139.95
KA717 45 cal flint kit $149.95
KA716 50 cal perc kit $139.95
KA718 50 cal flint kit $149.95

PR405 45 cal perc rifle $199.95
FR507 45 cal flint rifle $209.95
PR406 50 cal perc rifle $199.95
FR508 50 cal flint rifle $209.95

Specifications
Lock: Colorcase hardened, engraved percussion and flintlock style; adjustable sear engagement; bridle and fly in tumbler; authentic V-type mainspring.
Stock: American maple with fully formed cheekpiece.
Barrel: 45 or 50 cal; 32” octagon; 15/16” across the flats; hooked breech with two barrel tenons; rifled 1 turn in 66” for patched ball accuracy; authentic round thimbles; especially smooth rifling for fast break-in..
Triggers: Double set, will fire both set and unset.
Sights: German silver blade front; screw adjustable dovetail rear.
Finnish: Rich brown steel on finished rifle; German silver patchbox and wedge plates; authentic pewter-type nose cap.
Accessories: Stainless steel nipple; hardwood ramrod with brass tips; cleaning jag.
Overall Length: 48”
Weight: 7 lbs. 14 ounces.

ID Notes: Patchbox installed with 2 screws; thimbles are now round; hardwood ramrod has brass ends.

Big Bore M. R. Models: PR407 54 perc rifle $199.95
PR408 58 perc rifle $199.95
KA729 54 perc kit $139.95
KA730 58 perc kit $139.95

Same details as Mountain Rifle above, except .54 and .58 cal. Perc style; has no patchbox; weighs 8 pounds 2 ounces.


Per 1981 CVA Ad:
Percussion MR kits sell for $167.95, and flint kits for $249.95.


Per 1989 CVA Catalog:
MR still a catalog item.


Per 1980 DGW Catalog:

Percussion CVA MR sells for $185.00 and TC Hawken sells for $205.00

CVA MR barrels "...The land to land measurement is .492 while the groove to groove is .507 on the .50 caliber whereas on the .45 caliber, the land to land is .442 and the groove to groove is .460..."

Walks Alone

 

[Idaholewis]

Below is also from “Walks Alone” on the Muzzleloading Forum



Some speculation and hearsay”¦.

Hearsay: Supposedly the first USA MR’s were released for sale sometime in 1976.
The Made in USA MR’s, herein referred to as Model 1 for simplicity, is the first firearm advertised in the 1977 catalog (copywrited 1976), but with no “splash” that it is a new model for them. That sort of supports that if there was a 1976 catalog it may have included the “new” MR in it.

Hearsay: Some say the ”˜USA’ production barrels came from Douglas ”“ some say from Sharon.
If from either of these or any other premium barrel maker you’d think CVA would have mentioned it in the catalog since they did proudly make a big deal in the 1977 catalog that these first MR’s were “Made in the USA”. As far as I know, proof has still not been made available that the production MR’s had premium barrels (and so it remains hearsay in my mind).

Hearsay: The Spanish barrels supposedly came from Ardesa and they supposedly started offering these Model 2 MR’s sometime in 1978.
The Spanish barreled version that replaced the Model 1, herein referred to as Model 2, is in the 1979 catalog, but there is no mention of who made the barrels or even that they were made in Spain. Only a 1978 catalog will confirm if they were offered before 1979.

Comment on the identification between models: The barrel is the heart of the rifles, and either is or is not marked with “Made in USA”. So it’s an easy identifier. But because of changes in the design or materials of some parts when the transition was made from Model 1 to Model 2, there are other parts that can generally also be used as an identification guide. I suggest generally because barrels and other parts get moved from firearm to firearm by owners or smiths, plus it is possible that there were transition examples made with both Model 1 & 2 parts at the CVA factory. Some of these parts are easy to tell apart at a glance, some others that have been suggested might require having both examples in hand to tell them apart. Anyway, the known parts identifiable at a glance are:

Model 1: Made in USA marked barrel; 4-screw patchbox; hexagon thimbles; pewter ramrod ends.
Model 2: 2-screw patchbox; round thimbles; brass ramrod ends.

Walks Alone

 

[Idaholewis]

I am thankful for guy’s like above (“Walks Alone”) that took the time to post info like this, keeps this Stuff from getting Lost/Forgotten about.

I had never really given CVA Sidelocks much of a thought til recently (Me being a TC Guy) But a good friend of mine has 1 of these in .50 Cal that was his Grandfather’s Gun, His is the 2 Screw Patchbox, Round Thimbles, Doesn’t say USA, From the info above his is the 2nd Version. I Cleaned the Rifle up good for him, it had been shot and not properly cleaned It was a pretty bad Rusty mess, But it Cleaned up fairly good. I didn’t know anything about these Rifles then, Twist, etc? We took that Old Rifle out and Shot my Paper Patch Bullets in it, To my surprise it Shot EXCEPTIONALLY Well!

It was fairly recently that i got to thinking about that Ole CVA Mountain Rifle of my Friend’s, I remember it seemed very well Built, felt good to Shoulder, And it Shot REALLY Good. I started looking deeper in to them, This is when I discovered the info above :yeah: They are a 1:66 Roundball Twist, And spoken VERY highly of!! I decided i needed one They have a Roundball ONLY Shoot at a Gun Club about an hr South of me, I can use a Peep sight, and even a Globe Front, But NO Bullets! I have contemplated buying a Roundball Barrel for my Lyman GP Hunter, But decided against doing that, and Going with 1 of these CVA Mountain Rifles Instead if i could find a Nice one? From the Description of the Rifle I bought I’m pretty sure i found one :yeah:

 

[Idaholewis]

The Rifle i bought is the Older 1st Version, 4 Screw patch Box, Square Thimbles, USA on Barrel Flat. I contacted the seller by phone yesterday before buying it, the Rifle is Definitely Brand new old stock Stil in it’s Original Box, How cool is that for a Rifle of this Age!! It is a PR405 so it was Built/put together by CVA, And It’s a .45 Cal, my Favorite Caliber to Boot. I need to get Some .440 Roundball, Good Patch Material and learn how to Throw Roundball’s if i can get this Roundball stuff down, and Shoot it well enough, i will head down and Shoot against the Boys at that Gun Clun south of me

I don’t plan to Alter it much, But I am gonna have to put a Peep sight on it! My eye sight just doesn’t work with regular Open sights anymore, I see 2 Targets instead of 1, and they are Both REALLY Fuzzy But when I restrict my vision down through that little Peep hole i can See VIVIDLY Clear again, Crazy how that works!

This Rifle will be a lot of fun to play around with. I have talked about trying Roundball and Learning it for quite sometime now. But it would be my dead last choice of a Projectile for Hunting

 

[Harleysboss]

Very nice rifle Lew! As far as a peep that would work, check out muzzle loader builder supply "Johnson Peep Sight". Since you would be shooting probably 100 yards and in this would be a set it and forget it sight. No adjustment. I have one just not mounted on anything "Yet". Nice quality sight. Just one option.

 

[Idaholewis]

Very nice rifle Lew! As far as a peep that would work, check out muzzle loader builder supply "Johnson Peep Sight". Since you would be shooting probably 100 yards and in this would be a set it and forget it sight. No adjustment. I have one just not mounted on anything "Yet". Nice quality sight. Just one option.

That sounds Really good! I don’t need a Big Bulky adjustable Peep on this Rifle, i will Zero it at 50-75 Yards, Maybe 100? And that will be where it Locks down and Stays :yeah: No need for a Fancy Adjustable Peep like the Lyman 57 and Williams for a limited distance Roundball Gun. I will look up that Johnson Peep sight :yeah:

 

[GM54-120]

I think Deer Creek claimed the very early Made in USA barrels were Douglas blanks. The reproduction barrels they were offering were made on Douglas machines.

 

[GM54-120]

Here is a super rare beast

Jonathan Browning Mountain rifle in 45cal NIB!!!!
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/795193900

I am sooooo bad. :lol:

 

[Idaholewis]

LORDY LORDY I gotta get off this place! :lol: What a beatiful rifle!!

 

[Idaholewis]

I think Deer Creek claimed the very early Made in USA barrels were Douglas blanks. The reproduction barrels they were offering were made on Douglas machines.

I read this exact same thing, it wasn’t very many of them though from what I understand? Like the very first few of them



Any CVA factory finished mountain rifle made in Spain, would not only say so, it would have Spanish proof marks, (required by their law)


And this is where the major flaw of the myth is.
You are of course right about that, a fully finished rifle and/or barrel made in Spain will have their proof marks.

What CVA actually did in the beginning was have the barrel machined, bored and rifled at the plant in Spain,,
,,then have them shipped to the States un-breeched,, basically they where just machined pipe,,
,,Spain had no requirement to stamp them.
The barrel had the breech installed and the rifle components assembled here,, thus still stamped "Made in USA".
A few years went by before Spanish proof houses pressured their government inspectors to put a stop to the practice and the lost money,, that's when the Made in USA was dropped and the complete barrels were made over there with the proof marks.

The original owner of Deer Creek Products (the CVA pro shop) was involved even in those early days and told me in a long conversation that only about the first 200 barrels were made here stateside, then the rest in Spain.
Deer Creek did buy the Douglas machines,, and they did make the 500 commemorative anniversary models. The current Deer Creek owners no longer have those machines nor do they make any barrels,,and as far as anyone knows those fabled Douglas machines probably got worn out, may have been refurbished, parted out and/or scrapped.

 

[Idaholewis]

And this,


Spoke with a gent today at Deer Creek Products about the Mountain Rifle. "Erwin" spent some time and answered some questions.

Deer Creek did indeed buy the Douglas machines when Douglas closed their doors and still run them today making barrels.

He was sure that the first few hundred MR production rifle barrels came off the Douglas machines but very soon after the barrels where made in Europe by an outfit "Transmesa".

In 1996 CVA had 500 commemrative 25th Anniversary Mountain Rifles made completely by Deer Creek. These models had ALL iron parts in original configuration as the 1st model, just everything Browned iron. They where numbered 1-500. So some had Douglas Barrels, and if it matters Deer Creek Products are barrels from the same Machines

 

[ShawnT]

when Douglas closed their doors

What does he mean by this?

https://www.douglasbarrels.net/

 

[Idaholewis]

Good point Shawn, Maybe they did at one time?

 

[Idaholewis]

when Douglas closed their doors

What does he mean by this?

https://www.douglasbarrels.net/

Testing here to see if i can Quote

 

[ShawnT]

I see some quotes. I still see issues previewing and posting reply's. Previewing seem to just wipe out what you typed.

To my knowledge they have never shut down. I actually attended a college that right next door to their building back in 1981-82.

May be they just sold those particular machines off and a rumor got started.

 

[Idaholewis]

May be they just sold those particular machines off and a rumor got started.

Everything i read says that Deer Creek bought the Old Douglas Machines, But that very few of these CVA MR Rifle Barrels were actually Made using them. Even the Barrels that Say USA were mostly made in Spain, Shipped back here as Rifled Tubes and Assmbled here, This is how USA Could be Stamped in the Barrel. Who knows exactly?

 

[ShawnT]

May be they just sold those particular machines off and a rumor got started.

Everything i read says that Deer Creek bought the Old Douglas Machines

I'd bet that someone Misunderstood that deal or made a big assumption. Brownell's has also sold Douglas Blanks for a long time. I do believe NULA uses them exclusively.

 

[Idaholewis]

One thing I know for certain, I’m fairly excited about getting this Gun :yeah: Gonna Run over to BACO in the morning and Grab a few supplies so I’m ready to shoot it when it arrives

 

[451 whitworth]

Is the .45 caliber a 1-66" twist or is that just the .50? Most .45 round ball twists I've seen are some where in the 1-48" range.

 

[Idaholewis]

Is the .45 caliber a 1-66" twist or is that just the .50? Most .45 round ball twists I've seen are some where in the 1-48" range.

Suppose to be 1:66, At least everything i have read say’s so