CVA Paramount Update

[Dougs136Schwartz]

My bad your right

Sure seems like someone keeps bringing up and pushing a CVA that is not available.

 

[45-70]

I heard they might not be here until sometime in May , haven't left Spain yet

 

[Busta]

I was just in Indianapolis pretty much all day yesterday at the 2019 NRA Annual Meetings & Exhibits.






I drove down there mainly to handle the Paramount, as I was entertaining the possibility of buying one. I also wanted the information, directy from the company heads, man to man.

CVA and Bergara both had full displays, with all of their guys there available for answering any questions. I talked to almost all of them at one point or another. These are the names of the ones that I talked to directly, among others. I would say, they might just know a wee bit more than anyone else about the availability of these rifles.

Dudley McGarity - General Manager of BPI Outdoors

Jason Sebo - VP of Sales And Marketing

Tony Smotherman - Influencer Relations

Chad Schearer - Director of Advertising / Media Relations of CVA


Here is the CVA display, the Bergara display was about 3-4 times this size.


All of them seemed love what they do, and who wouldn't if you can talk about muzzleloaders and rifles all day, and still get paid?

Jason said we should start seeing the Paramount available in about two weeks. So that is consistent with what I was told by Customer Service on Monday, some time in May.





The rifle itself is solid as a rock, but that Vari-Flame ignition is a TOTAL NO-GO for me. The 209 primer ignition might still be a possibility, as an option. In their testing, they were getting extreme spreads in the 80ish FPS range with the 209 primers. They are using a slightly under bore sized bullet, with only a plastic skirt to hold it tightly on the charge though. A properly sized land rider bullet or snug fitting saboted bullet would be a whole nother ballgame! The extreme spreads with the Vari-Flame and rifle primer by comparison were in the 10ish FPS range, so this was their reasoning.

I will not buy one, unless they or someone else offers another 209 breech plug, and or ASG's LRMP primer ignition / breech plug. I didn't have the heart to crush their enthusiasm at the show in front of other potential customers. There was never a opportunity that someone wasn't waiting to talk to them. They will get the message real soon, when their customers are complaining about the leaky PITA to prime and deprime Vari-Flame adapter modules.





There will be a good market for an aftermarket 209 breech plug, and Luke at ASG's LRMP breech plug and primer module system. They will both be extremely easy upgrades.

It's really too bad, and I hope they are reading this, as the show was not the place for this conversation. If you guys at CVA do read these threads, do yourself and all your customers a HUGE favor. Contact Luke Horak at Arrowhead Sporting Goods about his patented large rifle magnum primer module system and breech plug. It will be the BEST thing you could ever do for this very deserving rifle.

Can't promise that he'll help you out, but if you don't he'll probably offer an aftermarket retrofit anyways, keep ALL the profits, and the happy customers. That ignition alone or a good 209 primer ignition will sell these rifles to your target customer for this rifle. Without them, be prepared for a whole lot of complaining about the PITA Vari-Flame modules. It's already starting from a prospective buyer, me.

I did make sure to tell every one of them that if they ever put the new fast twist .45 cal barrel on the Accura MR, I'LL BUY ONE TOMORROW! As well as a ton of other guys I know. So that seed has been planted, let's hope it grows.

Trump was also speaking at Lucas Oil Stadium yesterday, which is in the block next to the Convention Center.
I spent $85 on gas for my truck, $25 to park and walk about a mile each way to the Convention Center from the only parking garage that wasn't full (7 large city blocks), and about $30 for food. The whole down town was filled to capacity and beyond. So that's more than my 2 cents worth!


I did get some excellent information from them on the New Cascade and Scout TD center-fire rifles, but that is for another thread in another forum.

 

[ShawnT]

Excellent write up Busta. Thanks for sharing the info.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

It is a very nice write up and truthful post.

 

[dwm]

Great post,I also would buy a 45 fast twist mr, I wanted to buy the 50 but I have so many 50 guns I just can’t justify another one, but a 45 Accura mr I would buy

 

[GregK]

I was really interested in the Paramount and I still am. If I bought one I would have it shipped directly to one of the custom builders to have them figure out a new ignition system.

I’ve said this before, but it’s too bad that CVA put all the effort into this rifle and then stopped short on the ignition. One small thing during the design they could’ve made this the number one selling muzzleloader out there.

If they don’t make changes it will be interesting to see what the lifespan of this rifle is

Greg

 

[Busta]

I was really interested in the Paramount and I still am. If I bought one I would have it shipped directly to one of the custom builders to have them figure out a new ignition system.

I’ve said this before, but it’s too bad that CVA put all the effort into this rifle and then stopped short on the ignition. One small thing during the design they could’ve made this the number one selling muzzleloader out there.

If they don’t make changes it will be interesting to see what the lifespan of this rifle is

Greg

That is why I waited until it was ready to be released, to know for sure that they were sticking with the VariFlame, as designed. If they licensed the design, they could have made their own blowback free version, but that is not the case. They had a rifle on the table that was shot a lot and left dirty in the receiver. there was definitely some blowback near the breech plug. When I went back to take some pics, there was always someone in front of it with more waiting to the right. So I wasn't able to get a pic of that. They also had the priming / depriming tools there.

IMO, it's a better system than the one and done leaky Red Full Plastic Jacket, which is the only ignition available on the over $2000 Knight 500 Target Rifle. I'm pretty sure that with the right size and type of o-ring, my o-ring in the bottom of the primer pocket idea would work just as well as it did 11 years ago when Blackhorn 209 came on the scene? Even with the self headspacing bolt face?

I personally don't like either the VariFlame or RFPJ ignition system. There are much better systems available. It's just too bad they didn't get this all figured out ahead of time.

This is my take, just from information I've picked up along the way, and I could be all wet in my thinking? One of their engineers knew about the VariFlame, since it has been around for over 10 years. They consulted with Western, and they were aware of it. They probably did some research and found out it was patented. They probably got a sales pitch from Cecil, and went with it? They probably / obviously signed a licensing agreement for a undermined length of time? Now they are sorta stuck with it, and we are calling their baby "ugly!" Just my take.

If I really wanted the rifle, I wouldn't let the ignition stop me. I would make the time to make a 209 breech plug. The VariFlame breech plug could be converted to 209 in just a couple minutes with a bushing sleeved into the primer pocket. You would want to lock the bushing in place by brazing, JB weld, Red Loctite, or several other methods. You wouldn't have to do anything to the bolt face. Of course you would have to use a priming tool, just like with the VariFlame adapters. Of course the best route would be to spend the time to make a 209 plug and a bolt face conversion to hold the primer. Just need to get the headspace figured out. Someone like Luke or Hunter will make a 209 conversion for sure. Luke will probably also offer his LRMP conversion for this as well? There will be a good market for them both.

I personally would rather have the Accura MR with the fast twist .45 caliber barrel. I can make that blowback free in a matter of minutes with any 209 primer I choose to use. I would rather have the Paramount barreled action set in a Ridge or Hunter Stock. Just way more practical for me, and how I would want it set up anyways. I got all that long range shooting out of my blood when I was working for Uncle Sam 35 - 40 years ago. My days of lugging around 23# of rifle and ammo and 20/10 vision are long gone.

10 years ago, I would have bought it and fixed it myself. With my o-ring mod first, new 209 primer breech plug second. IMO, after Blackhorn being on the scene for over 11 years now, any muzzleloading engineer worth his salt should be able to figure out an ignition system that does not leak. That goes for all the manufacturers of muzzleloaders. I did it with a 2 cent o-ring 11 years ago, as well as several modified / semi-custom / custom breech plugs.

Someone will fix it, and make the upgrades available commercially. The rifle deserves it!

I do see this hurting sales for any knowledgeable muzzleloading enthusiast, but lucky for them we are a small minority. There will be several that will think it's the greatest thing ever, until they get done with that first range session, and the work begins.

Time will tell!

 

[ShawnT]

Busta, were you able to get a good enough look at the bolt to tell how they made it a "Self Headspacing" Bolt? Is it just a spring loaded boltface?

 

[Busta]

Shawn, I would have loved to been able to strip the bolt down and see the breech plug removed. They didn't have anything like that available and I asked. There is a cup in the bolt face, if you zoom in on this pic. I think it possibly had a shoulder and some sort of spring behind it, but I can't say for certain. If it does have a spring, that means it can also be replaced by a stronger spring, static shim, or bushing sized for your particular primer of choice. I was actually more interested in seeing the breech plug out of the rifle. They didn't have one available. I wonder if the breech plugs are listed anywhere for sale yet? There might possibly be an accurate picture of that somewhere?

It's just too bad that these companies don't do more research on the best types of ignition systems. One day on Doug's, Hanks, or MM is all it would have took. That not only goes for CVA, but Knight and Remington as well.

You don't read of anyone actually using the VariFlame. They consulted and/or listened to the wrong people. Sad, when you really think about how easily this could have been so different.

 

[ShawnT]

I see what you described. Thanks.
I totally agree that this one had and still has a lot of potential.

 

[Busta]

I see what you described. Thanks.
I totally agree that this one had and still has a lot of potential.

It looks like a new bolt face could easily be swapped out, that will hold a 209 primer or LRMP module. Hunter, Hank, or Luke will do it.

 

[dwm]

I know what Vari flame is , I have never seen it in action, what makes it such a bad ignition

 

[ronlaughlin]

The adapters are very well made of Stainless Steel. As such they are quite hard. Because they are so hard they do not marry well to breech plugs, and consequently they allow a lot of blow by. Myself i have lots, and lots of experience using them. By modifying CVA, and TC breech plugs i was able to utilize the adapters for thousands of shots. By doing so i learned the adapters wear very well, but don't seal well. What i finally resorted to was using o-ring to allow for a good seal, and eliminating blow by.

The system works. Ignition is reliable. One thing i found interesting is the magnum rifle primers do not erode flash holes at all. What i did was drill out the flash holes in the breech plugs to 0.034", and there they stayed 0.034" for over 1000 shots. This is not possible when using 209 primers. The 209 primers erode flash holes like miniature sand blasters with each shot, and will wear flash holes from 0.028" to 0.037" in three, or four hundred shots.

The issue with these adapters is they don't seal, and thus there is always blow by, unless one takes steps to eliminate this poor seal.

 

[dwm]

Thanks for the education, you are a wealth of muzzleloader knowledge

 

[mnoland30]

What turned me off on the Paramount was the weight. I'm used to carrying light rifles, and this one is about 2 lbs. heavier than my current muzzleloader, and 4.5 lbs heavier than my CF rifle. Ron, if the fix for the variflame is really as simple as an O ring, why is that such a big issue? Although, as an engineer, I've always been irritated by poor designs.

 

[ronlaughlin]

...............if the fix for the variflame is really as simple as an O ring, why is that such a big issue?...............

The o-ring works dandy in a break rifle, or a drop block rifle. However, it hasn't worked for me at all in a bolt rifle. Rotating/closing the bolt boogers the o-ring.

 

[Busta]

I come up with the O-Ring idea back in 2008, after Blackhorn 209 was released. I kept it to myself for several months, hunted with it that fall. They do an excellent job at preventing blowback in a Tip-Up / Drop Block type rifle, but you need a tapered primer pocket bottom for some bolt rifles due to the camming action when you turn the bolt down.

Around December 2008 or January 2009 I posted pics here gave the idea to everyone, including Metrics Unlimited and Western Powders. They both used the idea, including a few o-rings with their breech plugs. They are not necessary in the Western Powders CVA QRBP breech plug, but can be used by anyone that desires to set their headspace with the firing pin bushing to accommodate them.

As I said earlier, I'm pretty sure that my O-Ring idea will work in the Paramount. They use the larger VariFlame adapter for the Large Rifle Magnum Primers. The one in Rons pics is the small 209 primer sized VariFlame that uses the Small Pistol Magnum Primers. You can also use Small Rifle primers in Magnum or Standard.

Back to the Paramount. With it's self headspacing bolt face, I'm pretty sure That an o-ring can be used in the bottom of the primer pocket. Just need to figure out which o-ring would be best for that larger sized adapter and primer pocket. Might also need to modify the bottom of the primer pocket slightly deeper to accommodate the o-ring. The self headspacing bolt face would allow at least some of it? The problem with bolt rifles is the headspace needs to be perfect, otherwise the camming action over compresses the O-Ring. This may not be as big an issue in the Paramount, since the bolt face does not remove the primer module. In a Knight NFPJ adapter it turns the primer, and the o-ring will stick to the face of the primer unless you taper the bottom of the primer pocket, and get the headspace perfect for the primer you are using.

 

[45-70]

52 bore made a breech plug that would seal the NFPJ for a Knight rifle

 

[ronlaughlin]

.............The one in Rons pics is the small 209 primer sized VariFlame that uses the Small Pistol Magnum ...................

Actually, the adapter in Ron' pics is the large adapter for using large primers. See photo below.........