Disappointed in My CVA Optima V2 Pistol.

[hangfire11]

I've had it out about 5 times total. Of those times, I'm aware of at least twice it has had serious jam up issues. It's almost like the thing requires the use of Powerbelt bullets because the tolerances are so tight.

I remember one time I managed to get a sabot load jammed in there and literally broke the included ramrod trying to push it down. Rubber mallet didn't help. I did manage to push it back out from the breech once I got home and used a sturdier rod.

The other time, I was shooting away without issue using .490 roundballs and t-shirt material patches. No issue, fairly accurate out at 25 yards or so. I finally got daring and switched to pillow ticking patch. BIG MISTAKE. That plugged the barrel that there was no way I was going to get the ball to move out or further down the barrel at the range. Finally wound up taking the gun home and debating whether I needed to squirt Kroil or some such down in the barrel to help lubricate the projectile further to get it out. I think I held my breath and used a piece of steel rod to drive the ball/patch out. Amazingly there weren't any scratches I could see in the rifling or anything once I finally got the ball out.


Why round ball? Because I don't feel like paying literally 2$ a shot or more using overpriced CVA powerbelts. The pistol loves those sure, they are basically modern minie balls with a plastic instead of round skirting. The .490 round balls seem fine WITH A TSHIRT patch. But anyone using thick patch material is setting him/herself up for major problems if you use a thick patch. I've even gone so far as to track down and buy .480 round balls to avoid this issue in the future.

I did call CVA about the jamming when the sabot load got stuck, and was cautioned to clean it every shot when using Goex. "Too dirty a powder." I beg to differ. I think the tolerances on that barrel are way to tight. I'm not shooting Bull Elk with the thing at 150 plus yards. I wanted an additional 25-50 yard muzzleloading pistol.. just ... because. I also like it uses reliable 209 shotgun primer ignition.

I kind of regret getting the thing, and if I could do it over I'd go for another Lyman plains pistol and keep my powder charge around 40 grains. I don't intend to shoot the Optima with 150 grain magnum charges anyway, typically I use between 70 and 100 grains of FFFG. There is likely efficiency loss even at those loads. The included ramrod however is a tad short, and is intended for 100 grain or higher charges.

Curious as to other peoples experiences with the Optima V2 pistol.

 

[phalanx]

Just reposting from deermanok's thread for consistency sake.

I use xtp and crush rib sabots over 777along with the 20pgr sst in a blue sabot with no issues.
Thanks
John

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I've never shot RBs in any thing but a BP revolver, doesn't require patching.
Sorry if this is a dumb question but dont you have to try different ball sizes and patch thicknesses? Possibly you got it(bore) polished or fire-lapped to a point where it now requires an adjustment to the patch/ball? Keep us informed on how it works out. I love my Optima pistol but only shoot bh209 and saboted bullets. I did have to play with sizing a bit when i tried shooting lead conicals. But i wanted light bullets & less recoil so i switched to sabots.

 

[Matthew323]

Just my two cents worth, but where has it ever been written in stone that muzzleoading was going to be easy?

The advent of; the popularization of; & the application of CNC machining practices being applied industry wide to the manufacture of the modern percussion inline muzzleloading rifle; as brought forward in time from the 1808 percussion inline rifle as invented by Jean Samuel Pauley; to the late 20th Century inventions of Tony Knight & Doc White; has truly spoiled the average American muzzleoading hunter/shooter.

The advances in tightening up manufacturing tolerances, over the past 10-15 years, as applied to the inline muzzleloading rifle; have brought the muzzleoading community from a place where a shooter had no choice but to experiment in order to find an accurate load(s) for his sidelock flintlock/percussion rifle; to the present time where a shooter expects & demands that he be able to walk out of the store with any new inline muzzleloading rifle, regardless of brand, regardless of caliber, and if the first 10-20 rounds down range on a target don't show sub-M.O.A. accuracy at 100 yards, then the shooter tends to get almighty angry.

And, wants to blame the rifle's manufacturer, blame the barrel's manufacturer, blame the sabot's manufacturer, blame the projectile's manufacturer, etc., etc , etc.

I know that I sound like an OLD FART, waxing nostalgic about the "Good Old Days".

But, I always took for granted that I was going to have to spend some significant quality time, and resources purchasing components, in order to find an accurate load for any of my flintlock longrifles.

Period.

That time spent was, or at least I always thought so, a incredibly pleasant part of, not only the learning experience as applied to each new rifle that came my way; but most importantly, was part of what being involved with muzzleloaders was all about.

Fast, with immediate, or near immediate gratification, as regards to accuracy, especially sub-M.O.A. accuracy; is a relatively recent phenomenon in the muzzleoading community.

I'm not saying that hangfire 11 doesn't have some legitimate concerns about his particular Optima V2 pistol. I can't recall any other poster here at Modern Muzzleloading having similar issues with getting both a saboted bullet stuck in the barrel of his V2 pistol, but a 0.490" diameter ball stuck as well.

It has been very rare that I ever encountered a shooter getting a ball that was 0.010" under nominal bore diameter stuck. Which is to say, in this for instance, a 0.490" diameter ball vs a 0.500" bore diameter. Even considering the 0.0035" deep grooves of the average modern fast twist bullet barrel, there is really no good reason for a 0.490" diameter ball getting stuck when paired up with the 0.010" to 0.013" thick cotton jersey material that most T-shirts are made from.

That usually happens when people are using balls that measure 0.005" under nominal bore diameter, combined with patch material that measures at least 0.018" thick, or thicker.

And, I know with absolute assurance based on personal experiences, that because of the ability of the patch material fabric to seriously compress itself around the ball, and down into the grooves, that combinations of patch material & ball diameter that as calculated on paper would appear to not be capable of fitting into the bore, are, once past the crown, and 5"-6" down the bore; easily pushed down onto the powder charge using short strokes of a hickory ramrod.

This phenomena is just as true for the 0.0035" deep to 0.004" deep, square bottom, shallow groove, fast twist rifling, as it is for the 010" deep to 0.016" deep round bottom grooves of the typical patched ball barrel.

A question that I might pose to hangfire 11 is, Are you positive that the T-shirt material was 100% cotton jersey? Even 3% synthetic material mixed in with the cotton for its greater elasticity, could cause some serious plastic build-up to occur in the barrel.

If this were my pistol, I would clamp it securely in a well padded machinists vise, and drive a .54 caliber ball through the bore from the breech end of the barrel with a 7/16" diameter brass rod in order to obtain a perfect slug of the barrels groove diameter, and land diameter.

Then you would have an exact measurement of your V2 pistol's barrel.

Only then, will you be able to have a starting point from which to figure things out.

 

[eekjellander]

I've had it out about 5 times total. Of those times, I'm aware of at least twice it has had serious jam up issues. It's almost like the thing requires the use of Powerbelt bullets because the tolerances are so tight.

I remember one time I managed to get a sabot load jammed in there and literally broke the included ramrod trying to push it down. Rubber mallet didn't help. I did manage to push it back out from the breech once I got home and used a sturdier rod.

The other time, I was shooting away without issue using .490 roundballs and t-shirt material patches. No issue, fairly accurate out at 25 yards or so. I finally got daring and switched to pillow ticking patch. BIG MISTAKE. That plugged the barrel that there was no way I was going to get the ball to move out or further down the barrel at the range. Finally wound up taking the gun home and debating whether I needed to squirt Kroil or some such down in the barrel to help lubricate the projectile further to get it out. I think I held my breath and used a piece of steel rod to drive the ball/patch out. Amazingly there weren't any scratches I could see in the rifling or anything once I finally got the ball out.


Why round ball? Because I don't feel like paying literally 2$ a shot or more using overpriced CVA powerbelts. The pistol loves those sure, they are basically modern minie balls with a plastic instead of round skirting. The .490 round balls seem fine WITH A TSHIRT patch. But anyone using thick patch material is setting him/herself up for major problems if you use a thick patch. I've even gone so far as to track down and buy .480 round balls to avoid this issue in the future.

I did call CVA about the jamming when the sabot load got stuck, and was cautioned to clean it every shot when using Goex. "Too dirty a powder." I beg to differ. I think the tolerances on that barrel are way to tight. I'm not shooting Bull Elk with the thing at 150 plus yards. I wanted an additional 25-50 yard muzzleloading pistol.. just ... because. I also like it uses reliable 209 shotgun primer ignition.

I kind of regret getting the thing, and if I could do it over I'd go for another Lyman plains pistol and keep my powder charge around 40 grains. I don't intend to shoot the Optima with 150 grain magnum charges anyway, typically I use between 70 and 100 grains of FFFG. There is likely efficiency loss even at those loads. The included ramrod however is a tad short, and is intended for 100 grain or higher charges.

Curious as to other peoples experiences with the Optima V2 pistol.

I think you need more trigger time, and wear your T shirt , JoAnns Fabric has many thickness of muslin/pillow ticking and balls 490/495 combos ,a couple LBS of powder will get you started ! Since I shoot what I cast here's a couple of suggestions . These are 2 keepers ,the 1st is a 200 yd group with a 45 cal TC maxi unlubed and a black Harvester sabot .Note the bottom rt 3 shot getting on target (1 off paper)) ,made a sight adjustment and I hit at 9: 30 then invited my neighbor to try my (pistol ) and has better eyes (his is 3 in ) above mine ! All witnessed by 7other guys including (RFD) Rob another member who posts here . The scope is a 4 power Leupold /hold is dead on using bottom post for POA using 75 gr BH 209 weighed . Note the 2 @ 9:30 . Cause the same charge 75 BH209 and oddly enough 70 gr with a harvester 50-40 cal dark blue sabot with my cast Accurate 40- 290 -S and both (not)that it matters pure lead . Three @ 8:30 and then 2@9:30 (1 hole) and 1 up and right (100 yd) target is similar to the 200 yd with a completely different bullet /sabot (same windage) and similar elevation using fine crosshair (duplex) . Similar results (not quite as good) and a little dirtier with OE 2F 80 grains weighed
but really good for me shooting (none) requires any effort loading thou I swab between shots with windex between shots with real black powder . This is the end of trying different combos with this (pistol ) with the AR stock

 

[MrTom]

There are lots of different powders and patch materials out there to try if you're stuck on round balls, but personally I liken your comments to buying a Cadillac to drive only to the grocery store two blocks away twice a month and not know what fuel to use in it.

The Optima pistols are quite simply a class act in and of themselves. I owned an original version and now own two of the Vs models and can say with certainty that I have never had a stuck sabot in any of them and I've shot lots of T7 in pellet and granular form in all of the three along with bullets to 350 grains and diameters of .452. Never a stuck sabot. You fail to mention which sabot and which bullet [by diameter] you had to hammer out of the barrel. My guess would be that you tried to force a load using a sabot designed for .451 bullets and used either a .452 or .458 bullet , and quite possibly on a barrel full of fouling.

About the powder charges.....this Optima pistol's MAXIMUM charge is 100 grains by volume. NOT 150 grains like the rifle counterpart. Maybe read the enclosed manual. And I have loaded granular charges as light at 60 grains by volume and had no issues with ram rod length. The rod that comes with said pistol is just fine with sabots, but a round ball load may come up too short, but I guess I assume that anyone buying one of these guns is looking at the full potential, not being hung up on round balls which will deliver the least decent accuracy Again I'll liken your round balls in the Optima pistol to using high octane aircraft fuel in a moped.

Like several others here I use/have used BH209 powder in all of my Optima pistols simply to get them most out of my investment with the least amount of issues. This powder burns clean and offers repeated loadings of up to twenty or more shots with zero need to wipe the barrel.

One last thing....the hardest metal that should ever be seen inside your gun's barrel should be brass. Steel whatever to push out a load? Never. And if you have to hammer a load out then YOU have done something terribly wrong. Its not the gun.

 

[brushblind]

Wipe between shots no matter what the advertisements say, it just makes life easier!

 

[Chris W.]

Like others, I had zero issues with the one I had. I shot 240 gr, 300gr xtp and 225 gr Barnes xpb with sabots out of it. Never had one get jammed/stuck in the barrel. BH209 powder charges ranged from 50-95 gr by volume with no issues loading using the stock ramrod. At the range, that thing would consistently put three shots into under an inch at 50 yards. I could keep 100 yard groups under 1.5" on my good days. That was with it having only a fixed 2x20 power scope. Kind of regret selling it but I got a crazy offer for it that I just couldn't turn down. Some folks have more money than common sense.

 

[hangfire11]

Some of you are missing the point. The low octane fuel in the race car analogy. I am not racing most of the time. i don't need to shoot power belts on a plinking day. Plus there has been some questioning in regards to how good they actually are (lack of expansion). Power belts at walmart are between 17 and 20 dollars a pack of 15. That's just ridiculous.

I have read the manual. I have also shot muzzleloaders off and on for over 20 years, from the Lyman great plains rifle, to the CVA Optima, knight rifles, Ruger old army pistols, Jukar (junkar pistols) and some Traditions early inline muzzle loading pistol I can't recall. I've used Goex, Elephant, Pyrodex, Triple 7, and I can't remember what else. The bore is too tight, period. I haven't experienced this on any other muzzle loading pistol, rifle, what have you. I'll be more careful in the future, and stick to thin patch / t-shirt materials when using this pistol.

I'm well aware you don't use steel rods in muzzleloaders, but the basic rods wouldn't push the ball/patch combination out.

 

[rfd]

Listen to what Ed typed in his post, he knows the scoop. Make sure the patch material you use does NOT have synthetic thread, use only 100% cotton or linen. It's also about the lube used and how you address both fouling control and cleaning. The fit of projectile and patch is important, as is testing, no matter what the kinda gun.

 

[dbowling]

deleted

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

What about a T/C maxi-ball? Has anyone shot those in these pistols?

 

[eekjellander]

What about a T/C maxi-ball? Has anyone shot those in these pistols?

Yup a 45 in a 50 cal Harvester Black sabot see the targets We shot @200 yds /the hundred was boring !/Ed

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Some of you are missing the point. The low octane fuel in the race car analogy. I am not racing most of the time. i don't need to shoot power belts on a plinking day. Plus there has been some questioning in regards to how good they actually are (lack of expansion). Power belts at walmart are between 17 and 20 dollars a pack of 15. That's just ridiculous.

I have read the manual. I have also shot muzzleloaders off and on for over 20 years, from the Lyman great plains rifle, to the CVA Optima, knight rifles, Ruger old army pistols, Jukar (junkar pistols) and some Traditions early inline muzzle loading pistol I can't recall. I've used Goex, Elephant, Pyrodex, Triple 7, and I can't remember what else. The bore is too tight, period. I haven't experienced this on any other muzzle loading pistol, rifle, what have you. I'll be more careful in the future, and stick to thin patch / t-shirt materials when using this pistol.

I'm well aware you don't use steel rods in muzzleloaders, but the basic rods wouldn't push the ball/patch combination out.

I really think you oughta try polishing/lapping(whatever you want to call it) the bore. Use either Mike Beliveau's or Lee Shaver's method. Heck i would do it for you if you like.
Doubt anything would show up but have you got a borescope?

 

[Bad Karma]

Just my two cents worth, but where has it ever been written in stone that muzzleoading was going to be easy?

The advent of; the popularization of; & the application of CNC machining practices being applied industry wide to the manufacture of the modern percussion inline muzzleloading rifle; as brought forward in time from the 1808 percussion inline rifle as invented by Jean Samuel Pauley; to the late 20th Century inventions of Tony Knight & Doc White; has truly spoiled the average American muzzleoading hunter/shooter.

The advances in tightening up manufacturing tolerances, over the past 10-15 years, as applied to the inline muzzleloading rifle; have brought the muzzleoading community from a place where a shooter had no choice but to experiment in order to find an accurate load(s) for his sidelock flintlock/percussion rifle; to the present time where a shooter expects & demands that he be able to walk out of the store with any new inline muzzleloading rifle, regardless of brand, regardless of caliber, and if the first 10-20 rounds down range on a target don't show sub-M.O.A. accuracy at 100 yards, then the shooter tends to get almighty angry.

And, wants to blame the rifle's manufacturer, blame the barrel's manufacturer, blame the sabot's manufacturer, blame the projectile's manufacturer, etc., etc , etc.

I know that I sound like an OLD FART, waxing nostalgic about the "Good Old Days".

But, I always took for granted that I was going to have to spend some significant quality time, and resources purchasing components, in order to find an accurate load for any of my flintlock longrifles.

Period.

That time spent was, or at least I always thought so, a incredibly pleasant part of, not only the learning experience as applied to each new rifle that came my way; but most importantly, was part of what being involved with muzzleloaders was all about.

Fast, with immediate, or near immediate gratification, as regards to accuracy, especially sub-M.O.A. accuracy; is a relatively recent phenomenon in the muzzleoading community.

I'm not saying that hangfire 11 doesn't have some legitimate concerns about his particular Optima V2 pistol. I can't recall any other poster here at Modern Muzzleloading having similar issues with getting both a saboted bullet stuck in the barrel of his V2 pistol, but a 0.490" diameter ball stuck as well.

It has been very rare that I ever encountered a shooter getting a ball that was 0.010" under nominal bore diameter stuck. Which is to say, in this for instance, a 0.490" diameter ball vs a 0.500" bore diameter. Even considering the 0.0035" deep grooves of the average modern fast twist bullet barrel, there is really no good reason for a 0.490" diameter ball getting stuck when paired up with the 0.010" to 0.013" thick cotton jersey material that most T-shirts are made from.

That usually happens when people are using balls that measure 0.005" under nominal bore diameter, combined with patch material that measures at least 0.018" thick, or thicker.

And, I know with absolute assurance based on personal experiences, that because of the ability of the patch material fabric to seriously compress itself around the ball, and down into the grooves, that combinations of patch material & ball diameter that as calculated on paper would appear to not be capable of fitting into the bore, are, once past the crown, and 5"-6" down the bore; easily pushed down onto the powder charge using short strokes of a hickory ramrod.

This phenomena is just as true for the 0.0035" deep to 0.004" deep, square bottom, shallow groove, fast twist rifling, as it is for the 010" deep to 0.016" deep round bottom grooves of the typical patched ball barrel.

A question that I might pose to hangfire 11 is, Are you positive that the T-shirt material was 100% cotton jersey? Even 3% synthetic material mixed in with the cotton for its greater elasticity, could cause some serious plastic build-up to occur in the barrel.

If this were my pistol, I would clamp it securely in a well padded machinists vise, and drive a .54 caliber ball through the bore from the breech end of the barrel with a 7/16" diameter brass rod in order to obtain a perfect slug of the barrels groove diameter, and land diameter.

Then you would have an exact measurement of your V2 pistol's barrel.

Only then, will you be able to have a starting point from which to figure things out.

What he said! ^^^

 

[Bad Karma]

Some of you are missing the point. The low octane fuel in the race car analogy. I am not racing most of the time. i don't need to shoot power belts on a plinking day. Plus there has been some questioning in regards to how good they actually are (lack of expansion). Power belts at walmart are between 17 and 20 dollars a pack of 15. That's just ridiculous.

I have read the manual. I have also shot muzzleloaders off and on for over 20 years, from the Lyman great plains rifle, to the CVA Optima, knight rifles, Ruger old army pistols, Jukar (junkar pistols) and some Traditions early inline muzzle loading pistol I can't recall. I've used Goex, Elephant, Pyrodex, Triple 7, and I can't remember what else. The bore is too tight, period. I haven't experienced this on any other muzzle loading pistol, rifle, what have you. I'll be more careful in the future, and stick to thin patch / t-shirt materials when using this pistol.

I'm well aware you don't use steel rods in muzzleloaders, but the basic rods wouldn't push the ball/patch combination out.

You also might see if track of the wolf has .480 round ball or find a mold for those. A round ball from that pistol would probably be pretty pleasant and still ruin a deers day.

 

[Matthew323]

If I recall deermanok's past posts regarding his Optima V2 pistol correctly, then he has had success with factory swaged patched balls from Hornaday & Speer. I know that he really likes the. 50 caliber × 240 grain Hornaday PA Hunter short lead conical bullets, as they have been quite accurate in his V2 pistol.

 

[deermanok]

If I recall deermanok's past posts regarding his Optima V2 pistol correctly, then he has had success with factory swaged patched balls from Hornaday & Speer. I know that he really likes the. 50 caliber × 240 grain Hornaday PA Hunter short lead conical bullets, as they have been quite accurate in his V2 pistol.

Pretty much anything I pushed down the barrel has hit where I pointed it. Lately I have been using the Hornady 240 grain xtp hollow points with the supplied green sabots.
It's definitely the most accurate pistol I own.

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

Yup a 45 in a 50 cal Harvester Black sabot see the targets We shot @200 yds /the hundred was boring !/Ed

What about just a greased 50 cal. Maxi....no sabots?

 

[eekjellander]

Have not bothered in the (pistol) as the 45 is less recoil and gets the job done that was the goal , have better for full bore (Lyman Plains) but recoil says more weight as in TC Renegade works as (more is better )gun wise/Ed