Encore 209x50 ProHunter Questions

[Walkingeagle]

Ok everyone, I will apologize up front as I know how some of these repetitive questions become annoying after awhile, as well just the length of this question. I have been attempting to read on here for the last few weeks, seeking the answers, but end up with just more questions. I never knew so much was involved! As such, sorry...
My .50 Pro Hunter has the Speed Breech, and all questions revolve around this. My intention is to use only authentic black powder (2 or 3fg Goex), Pyrodex (RS, Select or P) or Pyrodex Pellets (50-50). I have quite a bit of these powders and do not wish to add more to the inventory. I am a hunter, no desire for long range and love to hunt the bigger game, elk and moose. Not so much deer. 100 yards will be self imposed maximum. I intended to use the 370gr Maxiball with two Pellets, but it doesn’t appear I can get enough scope adjustment to zero at 100 yards, so I will be moving to sabots and .429 projectiles (I have several hundred assorted sabots for .429” still to use up before I will try other calibre projectiles.). The 370gr Maxi’s using the two pellets print a 3” 3-shot group at 100yds, just quite low (18”). I am not using a specific ML scope, but Leupold VX3, VX Rifleman, Simmons and a fixed Leupold 4x, so perhaps I need a scope built for ML.
Anyhow, my questions....
1) I read about the life of breech plug being only a few hundred shots. Safe to assume using Federal 209’s that I can expect the same life, roughly 300 shots? How big of a flash hole should I be watching for to indicate replacement is required?
2) Should I be drilling out my flash hole to a larger size right off the bat? I have not checked into its current size (factory).
3) I have been using M-Pro 7 grease on breech plug threads. Being the Speed Breech, is thread tape even an option? I do get some fouling into the threads but not much, and the little springs on the end of the breech are staggered. I currently get no fouling back through the primer onto the action face at all.
4) Is there actual value in modifying the breech plug for alternative ignition designs? If so, which one?
I believe that is all at this time. Thanks a bunch.
Walk

 

[HC]

In regards to the scope problem, it appears something is misaligned with the mounting. The Burris signature zee rings could put the scope in proper alignment. Answer to #1 .036 to .038 depending on blowback, #2 no, #3 try the tape ? #4 I don’t know? Good luck.

 

[ported45]

Plug should last a lifetime shooting BP as long as it is well-cleaned. And if you have that much Goex and Pyrodex, you should already know all about the necessary cleaning with those powders.

I agree with Herschel about the scope, mount, and rings. Is it possible you have a 20 MOA scope rail that has been mounted backwards?

 

[HC]

The QLA may be the culprit as why the 370 gr maxi are hitting so low. Do you have plenty of adjustments using saboted bullets?

 

[Walkingeagle]

The QLA may be the culprit as why the 370 gr maxi are hitting so low. Do you have plenty of adjustments using saboted bullets?

Haven’t tried the sabots yet, will next range session.
Regarding the base, It is a standard Weaver but I have a custom that is going on next to try. Impossible to reverse the mounting of the base. They are all one piece and the mounting holes tight to one end.
Walk

 

[James Sparhawk]

I am waiting on a KonusPro 550 series to be delivered tomorrow. The scope has the engraved reticle for the very high recoil from muzzle loaders. It was only $90 bucks on Amazon. Everyone swears to the Konus scopes is why I am installing one tomorrow on my 50 cal Thompson Center Impact.

 

[GM54-120]

Hope 3" of eye relief is enough for you.

 

[DaMitch]

I would not alter your Breech Plug as noted it will last a long time. Also agree with noted scope mount fix. I would think the use of saboted loads will work well. I have always used bulk BP in my Encore with (Swiss) and it is a very accurate rifle. Enjoy

 

[Walkingeagle]

Thanks for the answers to my questions. I wiped off the grease from the BP and wrapped with tape. It seemed to go in place just fine, like normal. I removed and mounted a new custom base, then remounted my Leupold VX3 1.75-6x33 scope on her, bore sighted and now we wait till I can get to the range and try things out. Hopefully in the next week or two. Right now, well my moose draw kicked in as of this morning, so priorities....
Walk

 

[HC]

Good luck on the hunt.

 

[NatureNick]

Haven’t tried the sabots yet, will next range session.
Regarding the base, It is a standard Weaver but I have a custom that is going on next to try. Impossible to reverse the mounting of the base. They are all one piece and the mounting holes tight to one end.
Walk

BLUF:

You might try a $3 fix if you have a local retailer of cheap Chinese imported tools.


TECH NERD LONG VERSION:

If I'm following you correctly, none of at least 4 scopes you've tried on this Encore barrel give you enough internal elevation adjustment to get your zero group centered at 100 yards. If you're hitting the same problem with 3 different Leupold scopes plus a Simmons, I don't think the scope is at issue but rather the base, rings, and/or contour of barrel (where it's supposed to be perfectly cylindrical), either singly or in combination. I'd recommend a simple shim between the back of the scope base and the barrel.

Looking at my Encore barrel, center of forward-most base screw hole to center of rear-most screw is 1.460 inches. To bring POI up 18" I'd need a 0.007" shim under the back screw or a 0.006" shim under both of the two rear-most screws:

18 inch desired upward POI shift, divided by 3626 inches (100 yards x 36 inches/yard, plus distance of 26" from muzzle to forward-most base screw which will be the "pivot point") = ratio of 0.004964; that, times the distance from the rear-most base screw center to the forward-most base screw of 1.460 inches yields a shim thickness of 0.00724 inches to shift POA down 18" at 100 yards (or shift POI up 18"; potayto, potahto).

Subtract 0.31 inches from the base screw hole spread if your shim is going to go under both rear screws, and get 1.150 inches for the spread needing raised by the required angle, thus a 0.006 inch shim would put your 18" low group just about on the bullseye.​

But if that 18" low POI is with scope elevation adjustment already bottomed out, as I gather you've had to do, I'd want to bring it up by about 1/2 to 2/3 of the total elevation adjustment range of the scope. If the scope's total MOA adjustment range is 30 MOA (roughly 31 inches), I'd want to bring the rear of the base up the roughly 18 MOA you need to get the bottomed-out POA to center, plus 1/2 to 2/3 (15-20"). Same math above then calls for a 0.012 shim if going under both rear screws, or 0.015 shim if just going under rearmost screw.

I'm sticking to simple height-to-distance ratio, instead of unnecessarily bringing in angle cosines and the resultant extra potential for math errors. If 38 over 3626 equals x, then x times 1.46 equals 0.0153. Adjust values as your personal measurements indicate.​

SO... if it was me, using an aluminum Weaver base, I'd delay spending $100 on yet another scope or $20-$80 on a 20 MOA base, and just get a $3 set of SAE flat feeler gauges. I'd split the difference between the two rear scope base mount holes and use the 0.014 inch shim. I'd lay it on a wood block, put my base on it, mark the 2 rear hole centers, drill them through, then trim the resulting shim with metal shears & file off burrs to make the shim hide under the base. If the 0.014" shim isn't quite right then the rest of that $3 feeler gauge set offers a lot of working stock to play with.

 

[Walkingeagle]

BLUF:

You might try a $3 fix if you have a local retailer of cheap Chinese imported tools.


TECH NERD LONG VERSION:

If I'm following you correctly, none of at least 4 scopes you've tried on this Encore barrel give you enough internal elevation adjustment to get your zero group centered at 100 yards. If you're hitting the same problem with 3 different Leupold scopes plus a Simmons, I don't think the scope is at issue but rather the base, rings, and/or contour of barrel (where it's supposed to be perfectly cylindrical), either singly or in combination. I'd recommend a simple shim between the back of the scope base and the barrel.

Looking at my Encore barrel, center of forward-most base screw hole to center of rear-most screw is 1.460 inches. To bring POI up 18" I'd need a 0.007" shim under the back screw or a 0.006" shim under both of the two rear-most screws:

18 inch desired upward POI shift, divided by 3626 inches (100 yards x 36 inches/yard, plus distance of 26" from muzzle to forward-most base screw which will be the "pivot point") = ratio of 0.004964; that, times the distance from the rear-most base screw center to the forward-most base screw of 1.460 inches yields a shim thickness of 0.00724 inches to shift POA down 18" at 100 yards (or shift POI up 18"; potayto, potahto).

Subtract 0.31 inches from the base screw hole spread if your shim is going to go under both rear screws, and get 1.150 inches for the spread needing raised by the required angle, thus a 0.006 inch shim would put your 18" low group just about on the bullseye.​

But if that 18" low POI is with scope elevation adjustment already bottomed out, as I gather you've had to do, I'd want to bring it up by about 1/2 to 2/3 of the total elevation adjustment range of the scope. If the scope's total MOA adjustment range is 30 MOA (roughly 31 inches), I'd want to bring the rear of the base up the roughly 18 MOA you need to get the bottomed-out POA to center, plus 1/2 to 2/3 (15-20"). Same math above then calls for a 0.012 shim if going under both rear screws, or 0.015 shim if just going under rearmost screw.

I'm sticking to simple height-to-distance ratio, instead of unnecessarily bringing in angle cosines and the resultant extra potential for math errors. If 38 over 3626 equals x, then x times 1.46 equals 0.0153. Adjust values as your personal measurements indicate.​

SO... if it was me, using an aluminum Weaver base, I'd delay spending $100 on yet another scope or $20-$80 on a 20 MOA base, and just get a $3 set of SAE flat feeler gauges. I'd split the difference between the two rear scope base mount holes and use the 0.014 inch shim. I'd lay it on a wood block, put my base on it, mark the 2 rear hole centers, drill them through, then trim the resulting shim with metal shears & file off burrs to make the shim hide under the base. If the 0.014" shim isn't quite right then the rest of that $3 feeler gauge set offers a lot of working stock to play with.

Once I get this moose, then I am gonna try the gun at the range with the new base on it and see if there is a difference. If not the shim is next.
I agree its not the scopes, so I reinstalled the VX3 1.75-6x33 and will be sticking with it.
Thanks for the information, much appreciated.
Walk

 

[Tonyencore]

I’ve owned a number of Encore muzzleloaders and have mounted scopes on many more. They all shoot very low. I don’t know if it’s the barrel contour by the breech that does this or something else. I personally use the Burris signature zee rings. I use the inserts in to raise point of impact up to where it needs to be plus these rings hold very well and don’t scratch your scope. Heck, you can practically sight your gun in with the inserts without using your windage and elevation adjustments! Another idea would to put a 20 moa base on your gun. This would bring point of impact up enough so you could sight your gun in without using up all the internal adjustment of your scope.

 

[Pa.Marshall]

that is a super great idea using the feeler gauge for shims

 

[Walkingeagle]

I installed the Burris Signature rings today, with the .020” offsets. Now to just get to the range...
Walk

 

[NatureNick]

that is a super great idea using the feeler gauge for shims

I wouldn't sacrifice an $80 set of Starretts, but a $3-$5 set from Harbor Freight is fair game any day. The cheap ones are usually untempered & can easily be drilled cleanly. I use clear packing tape to hold them down to a hardwood scrap block, and a very sharp drill in a press.

 

[NatureNick]

I installed the Burris Signature rings today, with the .020” offsets. Now to just get to the range...
Walk

Love the Burris Signature rings' eccentric insert system. They seem to provide forgiveness for a multitude of base hole alignment mistakes. A rimfire silhouette newcomer to my LGC several years ago went from dead last to nearly top of the pack in about a month with a Marlin bolt rifle and $40 Simmons scope from Wally World, having only switched to Burris Signature rings. He swore he just mechanically zeroed the scope, bagged down his barrel with the bolt out, and spun the inserts in the bottom halves of the new rings until the crosshairs were about 2" below the centered-in-bore 50 yard target. That anecdote sticks with me because I'll never forget being outshot with my $1K+ rig by a guy with about $250 skin in the game, and $50+/- of that was his scope rings.

 

[NatureNick]

The QLA may be the culprit as why the 370 gr maxi are hitting so low. Do you have plenty of adjustments using saboted bullets?

What's with that QLA? I never understood the reason for it, since it just acts like an exhaust expansion chamber. It never seemed any harder for me to align a sabot into a properly-chamfered muzzle that it would have been for previous generations to start a PRB in any traditional sidelock, even when the sabots were cold & stiff. I'd rather not have gases expanding past the sabot's skirt until those gases can vent radially, otherwise it seems like it could cause some upset. I have a story behind that involving a ProHunter FX and my homemade lathe, but the results were inconclusive due to the presence of other variables.