Encore/Brux .45 BH209 loads?

[03mossy]

After thinking this over for a while if at all possible I am wanting to go back to either BH209 or even 777 out of my smokeless build. I just do not feel I shoot enough to be comfortable shooting smokeless powder. The few times I have out of this gun I haven't enjoyed it. I always have at least 2 of my kids around when I shoot and the attention to detail smokeless requires is something I can't do. I thought about selling this rig and buying a Knight Ultralite but I think I will just shoot BH209, for now, that way if the smokeless urge ever strikes again I still have a capable gun.

Now with the backstory out of the way I need some load advice. I also want to get away from the $3+ a piece fancy sabotless bullets and go back to shooting conicals as well. I miss the smoke and the "Thwack" noise heavy lead makes when it hits something lol. I have the HIS ignition system in this gun so not sure how that plays into this. When I had my .45 Mountaineer with 209 ignition IIRC my load I settled on was 80 grains BH209, wool wad, and a 460 no excuse conical.

 

[GM54-120]

Using a HIS type LRMP ignition you might be able to back off the powder a little bit. All i use is 70gr by volume and a 350gr Gould HP until i find something around 400gr i like better. 80grV and a 460gr though shot about as good. It just thumps a bit more on both ends than i need for deer.

 

[D55]

I understand the being hesitant to stay with sml. I got more comfortable with it after developing the load then made my own speed loaders out of cpvc 1/2" pipe with a 50cal sabot dividing the powder and bullet chambers. Painted the powder end cap black and plain on the other end with bullet nose in and wad on top if needed. It really simplified things for me. Nothing against smokers as I really enjoyed those days too.

 

[LarryBud]

Mossy,

The exact same thing happened to me. I bought a ML2 and two or three different powders and accessories. I Shot it for a few months. I was just too nervous I’d make a mistake. Figure I can get 2000 FPS out of BH209 and that’s pretty good.

That’s just me. I know there is a hard core smokeless crowd and more power ( pun intended ) to them.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

70-80 grV BH209 and a 346grn conical in my 45 Accura are great shooting loads. I have a Lehigh plug and a HIS plug. Both shoot yery similar.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

I've not shot BH209 out of my Brux Encore. But something tells me that a properly sized 300 gr Hornady SST with a wool wad would do the trick with BH209. Fairly cheap and they obturate pretty good.

 

[wmdbowman]

BH 209 will do the same thing as smokeless, it just takes a heavier load of BH. BH is a low energy powder.
The down side of BH is you have to deal with more fowling and more cleaning between shots.
Less shots per lb. of powder If that's a consideration. And greater cost per Lb.

 

[ENCORE50A]

BH 209 will do the same thing as smokeless, it just takes a heavier load of BH. BH is a low energy powder.
The down side of BH is you have to deal with more fowling and more cleaning between shots.
Less shots per lb. of powder If that's a consideration. And greater cost per Lb.

Well........ not really or always.

BH will never give you the velocities one will achieve with smokeless in the same rifle.
Yes you deal with fouling, but not always cleaning between shots. For most, cleaning between shots is not necessary.
As for less shots per pound, that's not always the case either. If you purchase both in 5# containers, the cost is very similar to smokeless costs.

 

[GM54-120]

BH209 is still about double the cost to the closest powder i get. You can get a 5lber of Alliant Re7 for no more than about $130. Shooting sabots it will easily beat BH209 for half the price per shot. You would have to use 140grV+ to even get close to a common Re7 200gr sabot load. That Re7 load is 111 shots per pound at $29ish per pound if you buy it by the pound. Even less in 5lbers.

So that ends up at 26 cents per shot for the powder and well over 2500fps.

 

[LarryBud]

GM54-120,

You make a very valid point. If one shoots much, it’s a consideration for sure.

 

[ENCORE50A]

BH209 is still about double the cost to the closest powder i get. You can get a 5lber of Alliant Re7 for no more than about $130. Shooting sabots it will easily beat BH209 for half the price per shot. You would have to use 140grV+ to even get close to a common Re7 200gr sabot load. That Re7 load is 111 shots per pound at $29ish per pound if you buy it by the pound. Even less in 5lbers.

So that ends up at 26 cents per shot for the powder and well over 2500fps.

That also depends on which propellant one wants or needs to use.

My last 5# botte of BH cost the same as the last 5#s of 8208.

If I use 84grs by weight of BH, which is more than most like to shoot, I'll get many more shots than I will with 8208 or Benchmark using my normal low charge.

From a 5# jug of BH @ 84grs one can get 416 rounds or 54¢ per round

From a 5# jug of 8208 or Benchmark, I can only get 395 rounds or 57¢ per round.

Yeah, some propellants are cheaper than others.

 

[GM54-120]

Doesn't 8208 and Benchmark come in 8lbers for about $200-225?

https://hodgdon.com/benchmark/

Available in 1 lb. and 8 lb. containers

https://imrpowder.com/imr-8208-xbr/

Available in 1-LB and 8-LB containers

 

[GM54-120]

When shooting lead conicals 70-80gr by volume has been fine for me and to me that is very affordable. Shooting jacketed sabotless or sabots im normally in the 110gr-120gr by volume range and right around 2100fps (sabotless) or a little more.

The more i shoot lead conicals and BH209, the more im enoying the reduced cost per shot and its still plenty of power for deer at MY typical distance. Even recreational its more enjoyable than the larger amounts and sabotless.

 

[wmdbowman]

Well........ not really or always.

BH will never give you the velocities one will achieve with smokeless in the same rifle.
Yes you deal with fouling, but not always cleaning between shots. For most, cleaning between shots is not necessary.
As for less shots per pound, that's not always the case either. If you purchase both in 5# containers, the cost is very similar to smokeless costs.

Black Horn can give one the same velocities up to a point. Giving up less energy it takes more powder and a longer burn time which means a longer barrel equates to less efficiency. Not cleaning between shots can improve accuracy with a smokeless propellant. In many smokeless powders the burn rate is controlled by graphite, graphite is a lubricant that aides accuracy. With smokeless guns normally the more shooting the better they shoot . It's not uncomman to shoot several hundred rounds without cleaning with naked bullets no sabots .
I think BH may have a graphite coating but not sure. I am sure it burns very dirty compared to any smokeless.
Shoot 50 Grs. of 4198 in your smokeless gun ( 5 shots.) at a bull 100yrds
Shoot 50 grs. BH 209 5 shots in your smokeless gun if you have one, at a bull 100 yrds. it will shoot low or not hit the target.
Don't clean between shots, You will start to get the picture.
Eventually one will reach a point you can't burn enough BH
Bottom line as far as cost is one pays more for less energy per pound of powder and pays for more fowling .

 

[ENCORE50A]

Doesn't 8208 and Benchmark come in 8lbers for about $200-225?

https://hodgdon.com/benchmark/

https://imrpowder.com/imr-8208-xbr/

Damned if it isn't 8# I had to go look! I'm still working off 1# bottles.

1# of 8208 costs me $40.49 locally and only one store anywhere within a 1.5hr drive carries it.

 

[GM54-120]

Thats another one of the reasons im moving more to conicals with BH209. You can basically shoot until you are sick of shooting before you need to run a patch. You sure can shoot sabotless awhile too but if you size on the tight side you better be careful. One stuck bullet can ruin your range day.

 

[GM54-120]

Damned if it isn't 8# I had to go look! I'm still working off 1# bottles.

1# of 8208 costs me $40.49 locally and only one store anywhere within a 1.5hr drive carries it.

Geez thats as bad as VV powders were. They seem to be a little cheaper now but still over $32/lb. They were pushing $40/lb at lots of places. Not a huge deal for N110 but that gets a little expensive for N120 using way more powder per shot.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Black Horn can give one the same velocities up to a point. Giving up less energy it takes more powder and a longer burn time which means a longer barrel equates to less efficiency. Not cleaning between shots can improve accuracy with a smokeless propellant. In many smokeless powders the burn rate is controlled by graphite, graphite is a lubricant that aides accuracy. With smokeless guns normally the more shooting the better they shoot . It's not uncomman to shoot several hundred rounds without cleaning with naked bullets no sabots .
I think BH may have a graphite coating but not sure. I am sure it burns very dirty compared to any smokeless.
Shoot 50 Grs. of 4198 in your smokeless gun ( 5 shots.) at a bull 100yrds
Shoot 50 grs. BH 209 5 shots in your smokeless gun if you have one, at a bull 100 yrds. it will shoot low or not hit the target.
Don't clean between shots, You will start to get the picture.
Eventually one will reach a point you can't burn enough BH
Bottom line as far as cost is one pays more for less energy per pound of powder and pays for more fowling .

The highest velocity that I know of with BH, came from a very heavily built rifle and a VERY HEAVY charge at 2,600fps, and even that was with a specific lot of BH. Even with heavier loads than most of us will shoot in our custom builds, you can squeeze out 2,500fps.
Of course one is going to shoot higher shooting identical charges. The smokeless velocity will be much higher than BH.
Yes I have a very high quality smokeless rifle, in which I also shoot BH.
As for cleaning between shots some do, some don't, depending on the rifle. I've shot up 50 rounds of BH with no loss of accuracy WITHOUT swabbing.

 

[GM54-120]

With undersized and knurled up ive never HAD to swab shooting BH209. Ive shot basically the whole time at the range. A tight wad pushes down quite a bit of the fouling. I think Bestill mentioned under some conditions such as rain/really high humidity it can get a bit messy. Cant say i shoot for recreation or competition in those conditions so its not something im concerned about.

 

[wmdbowman]

I prefer Black Horn in my inline low pressure black powder guns and live with the dirt. Or I shoot Black powder in my RB guns and live with the clean up
I would not loose the efficiency of BH to smokeless powder in my 2 Reminghtons, 1 savage, and 1 scout conversion .
Enjoy the BH in your smokeless guns. I go for the performance I built my guns for.
A wool or fiber wad will help with the dirt but why matter in a gun designed to shoot a cleaner powder and no wad.
BH will not get close to what can be done as far as velocity in any gun using an extruded smokless powder.
BH is meant for a black powder substitute not to replace or replicate modern smokeless powder.
Try as you may, but your smokeless gun with the correct powder in smaller charges will out perform equal or even greater charges of BH.
All of the black powder subs are much more hydroscopic than smokeless propellants.
Smokeless made black powder and even the subs obsolete. Not trying to break any ones bubble here but you guys should know better.
But part of the fun is Experimenting witch I don't do much of any more.