Energy and Velocity Question

Discussion in 'New to Muzzleloading' started by DesertBoy, Nov 16, 2019.

Modern Muzzleloader

Help Support Modern Muzzleloader:

  1. Nov 17, 2019 #21

    James Sparhawk

    James Sparhawk

    James Sparhawk

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2019
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    20
     
  2. Nov 17, 2019 #22

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    7
  3. Nov 17, 2019 #23

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    7
    These are my conditions above
     
  4. Nov 17, 2019 #24

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    7
    And .24 is what I used for BC because that’s what it says on the box. I didn’t think there was any guess work to a bullet BC when it is printed on the box by a manufacturer?
     
  5. Nov 18, 2019 #25

    BuckDoeHunter

    BuckDoeHunter

    BuckDoeHunter

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,595
    Likes Received:
    195
    304 yds and 330 yds on deer with a 250 grain Barnes TEZ. Impact velocity approx. 1400fps, this was out of a smokeless muzzleloader. Recovered one bullet from a med. sized buck, quartering too, bullet entered in front of left shoulder and veered some and ended up under the hide in front of the right hind leg, buck ran maybe 25 yards.

    304 yd bullet
    1BECD737-BFC3-448B-990D-72AB9BFAA538.jpeg
     
    NatureNick and DesertBoy like this.
  6. Nov 18, 2019 #26

    MSalyards

    MSalyards

    MSalyards

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2018
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Nine Mile Falls Wa
    I'm assuming scoped cause my open sights( the only thing legal here I Wa.) cover most of a whole deer at 100 yds.
     
  7. Nov 18, 2019 #27

    45-70

    45-70

    45-70

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2019
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    184
    I wouldn't do it, don't think it will expand, just my opinion , have taken many deer at that distance using black and heavy conical in a HP , soft lead
     
    DesertBoy likes this.
  8. Nov 18, 2019 #28

    NatureNick

    NatureNick

    NatureNick

    Supporter Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Iowa
    I'd avoid ShootersCalculator.com; their formulae use the BC as a constant, it seems, rather than properly treating it as an average within the specified range of velocity and assigning increasing/decreasing BC as appropriate along the affected section of the calculated parabola. Applied Ballistics' calculator (http://appliedballisticsllc.com/ballistics/) has been a lot more accurate for me on everything from .22-250 through .470NE, with stops between those two diameters mostly in the .264-.308" range. I've only used it with 2 different saboted muzzleloading bullets but it got me close enough to get my 100 yard zeroed load on paper (8.5x11" sheets) at 200 and 300 yards with 250 and 300 grain saboted bullets.

    The other reason I recommend Applied Ballistics' calculator is that it will use the variables such as wind (not just the speed you input, but the most likely range of wind speed/value variations' cumulative effects at the input distance), shooter confidence, etc., to paint a "Weapon Employment Zone," or the scatter effect over a substantive sample quantity of shots and its resultant probability of hitting a target of a specified size at that distance.

    In the case of your .241 BC, 290 grain .451" dia. bullet at 1,960 fps, even if you have perfectly solid shooting form, estimate your wind within +/- 2.5 mph of actual conditions at all distances, estimate range to within 40 feet, and shoot to the full potential of a rifle consistently capable of 1 MOA with no more than 15 fps standard deviation, your probability of a first round hit anywhere on a standard 30x18" IPSC/IDPA target at 500 yards is still no better than 28%. I don't have my good laptop handy tonight or I'd scale that to a 10 shot sample size at 200, 250, and 300 yards for you. (I just used the free version at the link I gave, which doesn't allow changing those parameters of distance and sample size. My laptop with the $200 program installed is with my wife this weekend at a sewing retreat since her iPad won't control her embroidery machine.) More realistic variables are probably 1.5 to 2 MOA, SD=30~50, and I leave it to you to grade your own shooter confidence. What's more, both your and my velocity curves show your bullet going transonic somewhere between 250-325 yards, which will change the rate at which the bullet's effective BC decreases beyond that distance.

    Bottom line is, your load more than likely provides the minimum remaining velocity (1,050 fps per Barnes' website) needed at 300 yards to ensure adequate expansion, but I wouldn't take a poke at a muley with it unless I'd first put a few 5-shot groups into a dessert plate sized circle at that range under approximate field conditions. In your shoes, I'd zero at 100 yards, test groups at 150 and 200 to find true holdovers, and definitely keep my shots under 200 yards this season. Then I'd spend some range time over the next year finding out just how good I can group out to 300 before next fall.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  9. Nov 18, 2019 #29

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    7
    I am not on shooters calculator, I am on shooters app, that has the same technology as applied ballistics, exbal, G7 ballistics, exc. Put the info into your applied ballistics and you will get the same results I get lol. But thanks for the input.
     
  10. Nov 18, 2019 #30

    NatureNick

    NatureNick

    NatureNick

    Supporter Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Iowa
    There is actually a whole lot more detail to calculating a ballistic coefficient (which is not a constant, but changes with velocity, angle of attack, rotation rate, etc.) than you or the 75+ pounds of Muley meat soon to be in your freezer will care about this season. I enjoy working out those details for specificity's sake these days, but I didn't understand them back when I hunted Colorado mule deer & elk - and I still seemed to bring home a lot of meat when the animals showed up and did their part in pretending they didn't see/hear/smell me.
     
  11. Nov 18, 2019 #31

    NatureNick

    NatureNick

    NatureNick

    Supporter Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Iowa
    I know YOU are on Shooters' App, not ShootersCalculator.com. But someone else was posting screenshots from ShootersCalculator, and I was trying to politely suggest that we can all use something better than that. It grossly exaggerates deceleration, though I'd need 20 minutes at a very large whiteboard with a reasonably fine dry erase marker to show why.

    And yes, I know that what we saw aren't really what we mean by the term "screenshots." Again, just trying to be a good neighbor, not having any idea how hard anyone else on here could punch if I said the same thing the same way to them within arms' reach of them.
     
    michiganmuzzy likes this.
  12. Nov 18, 2019 #32

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    7
    So the B.C of a 300grain .338 Berger OTM is truly not .818? And all the guys around the world who are putting manufacturer rated B.C’s into their ballistic programs for elevation and windage corrections are just guessing? You have me super confused?
     
  13. Nov 18, 2019 #33

    Far Sighted

    Far Sighted

    Far Sighted

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2018
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    35
    Location:
    NE Arkansas
    I adjusted by inputting 0.241 B.C and there is still a variation

    20191117_210827.jpg
     
  14. Nov 18, 2019 #34

    Far Sighted

    Far Sighted

    Far Sighted

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2018
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    35
    Location:
    NE Arkansas
    Ok if I put the attitude and temp in the values wiggle up to 1021 ft lbs of E. and 1259 fps still something different
     
  15. Nov 18, 2019 #35

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    7
    NatureNick I was just confused on what you were trying to say and to who lol. Thanks for your input.
     
    Far Sighted likes this.
  16. Nov 18, 2019 #36

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    DesertBoy

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    7
    Far Sighted that’s what my shooters app is saying as well. When I ran my numbers, I had .28 in for B.C by mistake. With the correct B.C of .24, I am at 1257fps velocity, and 1017ft lbs. Looks like I would need a little more velocity to ethically shoot at that range.
     
    Far Sighted likes this.
  17. Nov 18, 2019 #37

    sdporter

    sdporter

    sdporter

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    Southern Utah
    A big mulie is a fairly tough animal. I’ve been hunting them my whole life. If you get one in the boiler room at 300 yards, supposedly no problem.
    If you feel confident, capable, and ethical about the shot, take it.
    I’ve only lost one animal with a rifle (including muzzleloaders) ever, and it was this year. I had a good shot at a good buck (24” range) at 150 yards, quartering toward me with my .30-06. I thought I had hit him hard, only found a few drops of blood and lost the trail. I was in thick pinions and junipers and I looked for several hours for him. No doubt he died, I just don’t know where. Made me absolutely sick.
    The terrain your hunting, will determine the range your shots might end up being. I’m in Utah and I’ve only taken 3 or 4 animals in the 300 plus yard range. Excluding coyotes.
    Too many, me included, practice so much on our shooting skills and not enough on our stalking skills. We can ALMOST ALWAYS get closer. Sometimes not, and then we have to decide.
    The biggest buck I have had a chance to take in several years, was a couple of years ago during the muzzleloader hunt. Saw him at 150 and kept waiting for him to stop and look back. He just kept moving and I didn’t shoot. He wasn’t running, but not feeding either. Just moving quick enough that with bullet flight time, who knows what may have happened between when I pulled the trigger and the bullet arrived. 20 or 30 years earlier, I would have shot, no question. Funny how the years can change your perspective...
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  18. Nov 18, 2019 #38

    Far Sighted

    Far Sighted

    Far Sighted

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2018
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    35
    Location:
    NE Arkansas
    Yeap you never know. Knowing some ballistics can help. A couple years ago I made my longest deer kill of 370 yds with a 270 Win rifle. The day before I spent some time reviewing the ballistics. It was a perfect shot right in desired spot that laid him down.
     
    DesertBoy likes this.
  19. Nov 18, 2019 #39

    sdporter

    sdporter

    sdporter

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    Southern Utah
    They do. Don’t know if you’re using the top of the bead as your aiming point, if not, you’ll find you can stretch your open sight range considerably, by doing so. There have been a lot of soldiers killed at some ridiculous ranges with open sight rifles over the years. Utah had a 1x scope limit on muzzle loaders for several years and that was a problem... most crosshairs on 1x scopes and red dots, were 3 or 4 moa thick. They completely covered a paper plate at 200 yards. When you couldn’t see any of the plate, you knew you were holding center
     
  20. Nov 18, 2019 #40

    MSalyards

    MSalyards

    MSalyards

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2018
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Nine Mile Falls Wa
    I'm using the top of a post on my Lyman with lee Shaver inserts .Small but deer goes away at about 100yds
     

Share This Page



arrow_white