Finding a node: accuracy vs. velocity

[UtahJimmy]

I'm having trouble finding an answer to what I'm searching for, hoping you all can help!

I'm about to head out to shoot my new-to-me 45 mountaineer. I'm going to start with the 275gr Parker BE's, .125" wool wads, CCI primers, and blackhorn 209. From what I'm seeing, most people recommend steps of 5gr by vol.

As a reloader if CF rifles, I usually start with 0.5gr increments, find an area of interest via velocity, then tune in at 0.1gr increments until I find my node still via velocity. Then I shoot groups with seating depth.

Does anyone use a Chrono to find their nodes with muzzleloaders or is it common practice to just shoot for groups because you cannot adjust seating depth?

 

[sdporter]

I'm having trouble finding an answer to what I'm searching for, hoping you all can help!

I'm about to head out to shoot my new-to-me 45 mountaineer. I'm going to start with the 275gr Parker BE's, .125" wool wads, CCI primers, and blackhorn 209. From what I'm seeing, most people recommend steps of 5gr by vol.

As a reloader if CF rifles, I usually start with 0.5gr increments, find an area of interest via velocity, then tune in at 0.1gr increments until I find my node still via velocity. Then I shoot groups with seating depth.

Does anyone use a Chrono to find their nodes with muzzleloaders or is it common practice to just shoot for groups because you cannot adjust seating depth?

I’ve often wondered about that myself. I don’t have a chrono as of yet, but have shot through a friends a once. I found with my .223 vanguard, my smallest groups, were the smallest ES.
I would be willing to bet, you’ll find the same thing with a smokepole.

 

[sdporter]

Mine also tightened up some by weighing my volume charge, and then weighing out several at that weight. You probably already do that. Just a suggestion if you don’t.

 

[UtahJimmy]

Mine also tightened up some by weighing my volume charge, and then weighing out several at that weight. You probably already do that. Just a suggestion if you don’t.

Yeah, I plan on weighing them. 3.5gr increments just seems huge!

 

[Sideshow]

I'm having trouble finding an answer to what I'm searching for, hoping you all can help!

I'm about to head out to shoot my new-to-me 45 mountaineer. I'm going to start with the 275gr Parker BE's, .125" wool wads, CCI primers, and blackhorn 209. From what I'm seeing, most people recommend steps of 5gr by vol.

As a reloader if CF rifles, I usually start with 0.5gr increments, find an area of interest via velocity, then tune in at 0.1gr increments until I find my node still via velocity. Then I shoot groups with seating depth.

Does anyone use a Chrono to find their nodes with muzzleloaders or is it common practice to just shoot for groups because you cannot adjust seating depth?

Utah i think youre gonna find that you wont build sufficent pressure for Reliable ignition with wool wads . Youre gonna need veggie wads or polywads in order to get that bh209 lit off Reliably . Bh209 requires a good sealing wad in order to work like it should . Good powder but theres a few requirements its got and ya gotta meet them . Its also gonna appreciate a good crush seal on its full strength 209 primers , its actually about a little bit more than blowback but also a good burn of the powder and the hotter the better so its a federal 209a for me . I believe i get the best burn with the powder packed really tight as well . I use a Precision Packer to seat my load consistantly and it seems to help accuracy for me . Seal er up , pack er down and youll rock a critters world !!! If your a cf loader you know the benefits of fine stepped load development when your getting close . There really isnt any difference here . Take all the time you need ......

 

[ENCORE50A]

If you're looking for the absolute, perform the Satterlee test.

For most, not all, especially with production rifles, finding an accurate charge for their maximum hunting range is sufficient with their favorite bullet. Most will never perform the Satterlee test, nor is it needed in most cases with production rifles for hunting. However, many of the top competition shooters will perform the Satterlee test.
IIRC, the current National Champion uses a wool wad, but most use the .060" thick veggie wads.

You may also be surprised, even with BH, the difference just 2grs will make in a group size. The following is NOT a Satterlee test, but it will give you an idea just what 2grs might give you.
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/fun-on-my-own-range.35628/

 

[Sideshow]

I'm having trouble finding an answer to what I'm searching for, hoping you all can help!

I'm about to head out to shoot my new-to-me 45 mountaineer. I'm going to start with the 275gr Parker BE's, .125" wool wads, CCI primers, and blackhorn 209. From what I'm seeing, most people recommend steps of 5gr by vol.

As a reloader if CF rifles, I usually start with 0.5gr increments, find an area of interest via velocity, then tune in at 0.1gr increments until I find my node still via velocity. Then I shoot groups with seating depth.

Does anyone use a Chrono to find their nodes with muzzleloaders or is it common practice to just shoot for groups because you cannot adjust seating depth?

Most here wont but i have . Bh209 actually isnt really consistant ES by its own nature yet still can produce excellant accuracy . Nothing in the mz world beats Holy Black for consistant velocity . Swiss is said to be best by those that use it for its accuracy potential . If youre like me i push my loading quite hard so if i were you id either get Bestill Creations breech plug or look up "Ends the Stuck Breech Plug Blues" thats back in the inline section a page or few . Gas cutting is a Very Real possible thing with bh209 especially so id heed this advice if i were you .!!! This also includes crud forced under tremendous heat and pressure up into the threads !!! Be wise !!!
Much can also be found with harmonic stabilization/tuning as well . Good bedding never hurts either . A rifle is a rifle to a degree . Tune it . I also believe those triggers are adjustable as well . Youll find that info here in past threads as well . Have fun with this front stuffer . Absolutely fabulous accuracy IS attainable !!!! For hunting , most important i feel cuz living creatures are involved or target work punching paper . Just , if i may , dont get too carried away with the target stuff . It Doesnt always All transfer for a game rifle . Bullets or even scopes for example IMO . i think youll be pretty good to go with this info and more here at MM . Good Luck.....

 

[ENCORE50A]

Swiss is likely one of the best black powders, if that's what the OP wanted to use but he's using BH. Having shot BH209 since it became available, I've had no inconsistencies with it, having shot many thousands of rounds. Charges by weight yield very low ES when using module ignition. Yes, there is a learning curve one must follow, but its not hard. BH209 seems to be consistent enough, that in the past 5yrs, its produced the best scores in matches and the Nationals at Friendship (NMLRA).

The Satterlee test will get you what you're looking for. I suggest single grain increases. Be consistent with your loading force and seating forces.

 

[UtahJimmy]

Utah i think youre gonna find that you wont build sufficent pressure for Reliable ignition with wool wads . Youre gonna need veggie wads or polywads in order to get that bh209 lit off Reliably . Bh209 requires a good sealing wad in order to work like it should .

Interesting comment. I've been leaning a lot on the information provided by @Idaholewis and he seems to be very much in favor of wool wads. I've got the 50 cal version (oversized for my 45) which come highly recommended by him. Judging by the bore scope pictures he provided last week, I think I'm gonna have a great seal.

 

[Sideshow]

OP also doesnt have modual ignition among other missed tidbits clearly posted .

 

[Sideshow]

Interesting comment. I've been leaning a lot on the information provided by @Idaholewis and he seems to be very much in favor of wool wads. I've got the 50 cal version (oversized for my 45) which come highly recommended by him. Judging by the bore scope pictures he provided last week, I think I'm gonna have a great seal.

Try it , it may work for you . It didnt work in his Mountaineer with bh209 and also many others here on MM . I actually prefer the polywads but others like veggie wads with bh209 loads . There is ALOT of room for testiing and experimentation !!!

 

[Idaholewis]

Interesting comment. I've been leaning a lot on the information provided by @Idaholewis and he seems to be very much in favor of wool wads. I've got the 50 cal version (oversized for my 45) which come highly recommended by him. Judging by the bore scope pictures he provided last week, I think I'm gonna have a great seal.

I have tried them ALL (i own LOTS of all in Bulk Material) .030 in Vege Fibre and LDPE, .060 in Vege Fibre and LDPE, .125-.130 Circle Fly Nitro Cards, Even Cork. NONE OF THEM are as Consistent as 1/8” Wool Felt. The Hard Card Wads are WAY to Hit & Miss for me, I don’t even Bother with them anymore

 

[Sideshow]

I have tried them ALL (i own LOTS of all in Bulk Material) .030 in Vege Fibre and LDPE, .060 in Vege Fibre and LDPE, .125-.130 Circle Fly Nitro Cards, Even Cork. NONE OF THEM are as Consistent as 1/8” Wool Felt. The Hard Card Wads are WAY to Hit & Miss for me, I don’t even Bother with them anymore

Lewis he's using bh209......did you miss that ??

 

[UtahJimmy]

Swiss is likely one of the best black powders, if that's what the OP wanted to use but he's using BH. Having shot BH209 since it became available, I've had no inconsistencies with it, having shot many thousands of rounds. Charges by weight yield very low ES when using module ignition. Yes, there is a learning curve one must follow, but its not hard. BH209 seems to be consistent enough, that in the past 5yrs, its produced the best scores in matches and the Nationals at Friendship (NMLRA).

The Satterlee test will get you what you're looking for. I suggest single grain increases. Be consistent with your loading force and seating forces.

I've got pre-weighed tubes from 63.0 to 84.0 in 3.5gr increments. I'm gonna go shoot them over my chrono (while also shooting groups) to see what I get. I'm a nerd (aka engineer) so I love to experiment and don't mind burning extra powder to collect extra data. If I can find a velocity & accuracy node to explore with this increment, I'll be pretty happy.

Your thread about the 2gr difference between 84 and 86 is impressive! That's the kind of consistency I'm after. Did you happen to capture the velocities of either of those loads? Since vertical stringing is indicative of velocity deviations, I'd be curious as to the magnitude of ES for those two loads.

 

[Idaholewis]

Lewis he's using bh209......did you miss that ??

Sorry, I did miss that!

I have never Tested Wool Felt OP Wads with BH209, In fact i have Never Tested ANY OP Wads with BH209, That Powder was a DISASTER for me with my Slip Fit/Land Rider Bullets (Target Loads) I BURNED it and Went back to my Swiss Real Blackpowder, Which i shoot Exclusively in All of my Muzzleloaders. That said, I don’t see why 1/8” Wool Felt Wouldn’t Work with BH209?

 

[Sideshow]

Sorry, I did miss that!

I have never Tested Wool Felt OP Wads with BH209, In fact i have Never Tested ANY OP Wads with BH209, That Powder was a DISASTER for me with my Slip Fit/Land Rider Bullets (Target Loads) I BURNED it and Went back to my Swiss Real Blackpowder, Which i shoot Exclusively in All of my Muzzleloaders. That said, I don’t see why 1/8” Wool Felt Wouldn’t Work with BH209?

I didnt know what his bullet to bore fit was like so i wanted it to at least go Boom !!! Lol !!! BH209 likes a Tight seal fit for good ignition and preformance . Kinda weird but thats what it likes for sure !!!

 

[Idaholewis]

I didnt know what his bullet to bore fit was like so i wanted it to at least go Boom !!! Lol !!! BH209 likes a Tight seal for good ignition and preformance . Kinda weird but thats what it likes for sure !!!

Definitely! With BH209, You try “Slip Fit/Land Rider” Bullets with Wool Felt OP Wads and FAILURE awaits you. I’ve Been there, Tried that

 

[ENCORE50A]

OP also doesnt have modual ignition among other missed tidbits clearly posted .

Easily understandable. I don't miss much...., just don't say much about it.

Most are using veggie wads, with some using poly wads. Doug S. who more or less left the board, used to use wool wads with bullet to bore and BH. I would assume he still does. However, I'm not sure what his bullet loading force is, which would make a difference.

 

[Sideshow]

Definitely! With BH209, You try “Slip Fit/Land Rider” Bullets with Wool Felt OP Wads and FAILURE awaits you. I’ve Been there, Tried that

Thanks for the clarification Idaholewis !!!!

 

[sdporter]

I didnt know what his bullet to bore fit was like so i wanted it to at least go Boom !!! Lol !!! BH209 likes a Tight seal fit for good ignition and preformance . Kinda weird but thats what it likes for sure !!!

I didnt know what his bullet to bore fit was like so i wanted it to at least go Boom !!! Lol !!! BH209 likes a Tight seal fit for good ignition and preformance . Kinda weird but thats what it likes for sure !!!

I have never had a slow fire, hang fire, or failure to fire, in any of my guns shooting BH209. I’ve never chrono’d any of them either, so I have no idea the velocity or ES. I would guess the velocity is quite low compared to the stated velocity in the charts.

I can see where what you are saying might be and probably is true though.

I used a ballistic calculator, and went off the printed velocity for BH209 using the 100 grains volume and a 300 grain bullet (Parker BE’s) I don’t remember if it listed that bullet exactly or if I averaged all the 300 grain bullet speeds listed at 100 gns volume to get the velocity I punched into the calculator.

At any rate, my 400 yard shot I tried at a gong, missed by 5 feet low. So I feel there is definitely some credibility to your statement!. This was out of my bolt, Breech plug modded Austin Halleck .45.

At 100 yards, In a 15 mph crosswind, the group center was the size of a beer cap, however big that is.

The bullets are a bit snug to start, but then push right down. I may and probably do, need a tighter fit.....