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Discussion in 'Sidelock/Traditional Muzzleloading' started by mikemci, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. Apr 22, 2019 #1

    mikemci

    mikemci

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    Hello again!
    We had a conversation on your youtube channel regarding mods needed to mount the Lyman peep sight on a T/C Renegade.
    Your expertise is requested.
    TIA
     
  2. Apr 23, 2019 #2

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    It is an easy, straight forward process. First thing, is the Tang on your Rifle Drilled and Tapped for a Peep? TC Made some of Both, Some Tangs came Tapped for a Peep from the Factory, and Some Did not, out of my MANY Renegades and Hawkens only 1 of mine was Factory Drilled and Tapped, all of my others Required me to do it.

    Not Drilled and Tapped for Peep. If your Tang is like this one you will need to Drill and Tap it to 8-32
    [​IMG]

    Factory Drilled and Tapped for Peep, they added a Plug to protect the Threads.
    [​IMG]


    The Lyman 57 Base will need to be Modified so that it Clears the Forward Wrist Wood of the Renegade.

    It will look like this when you are done with it, i use a Dremel with a Sanding Wheel, takes about 2 minutes to do this. You can paint this black, or ignore it, it is Aluminum therefore will not Rust and this is Hidden as you will see below
    [​IMG]

    Here you can See how it Clears the Forward Wrist Wood of this Renegade.
    [​IMG]

    This is a FUZZY Picture of a Lyman 57 on 1 of my Hawkens, i did not have to do the Above sight base Mod on this Rifle, it Cleared after i added the Required Front Washers to take out the “Forward Tilt” here you can see the Corner that needs to be Removed from the Sight Base for Renegade installation. The Hawkens are a Bit thinner Through the Wrist of the Stock than the Renegades, Some Hawkens do not need the Sight Base Mod, But so far all Renegades i have worked with do, The Forward Wrist Wood of the Renegade’s are a Bit Thicker.

    See the Corner on the underside of the 57 Sight Base i am Talking about here? Look between this pic and the 1 above
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  3. Apr 23, 2019 #3

    mikemci

    mikemci

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    Thank you sir! I believe I get it.
    Will probably be even more clear when the sight is in my hands.
    Do you use a globe sight on the muzzle?
     
  4. Apr 23, 2019 #4

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    This is a really easy process,
    I do! I love the Globe Fronts for Bench/Target, They are the reason i can Shoot my Peep Sight Setups as well as i do, But i will Warn that they are not the Best for Hunting, In my opinion they are a Poor Hunting Sight.

    Here I explain it in Detail
    https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/peep-sights-how-i-use-them.33711/
     
  5. Apr 23, 2019 #5

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    When you get your Lyman 57 if you don’t feel comfortable doing the Sight Base Mod, Put the Base in a Padded envelope and Send it to me, i will do it for you and get it back in the Mail that same day :lewis: I have done a TON of these things, I could likely do 1 Blind Folded, Though i Won’t risk it on yours. I will wait for Edmehlig to send me another to try it on :D

    P.S. WELCOME to the Forum :lewis:
     
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  6. Apr 23, 2019 #6

    mikemci

    mikemci

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    Thanks for you're generous offer and instructions.
    Your pictures and video were very helpful.
     
  7. Apr 23, 2019 #7

    edmehlig

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    I sent mine to Lew and as he said, he'll have it back to you the same/next day. He did a fantastic job on mine. When I got it back, I mounted my rifle in a vise and put a small 12 " level on the bbl to level it out. In order to level the peep sight, it required me to put two Brass washers under the front screw and one in the back to get it leveled with the bbl. The small brass washers you can get either at Lowes or Home Depot.
     
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  8. Apr 23, 2019 #8

    mikemci

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    I agree, it sounds like it's old hat to him.
     
  9. Apr 23, 2019 #9

    mikemci

    mikemci

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    I am looking at Lee Shaver globe sights, which height globe should I get if pairing it with Lyman 57SML peep?
     
  10. Apr 23, 2019 #10

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    My preference in the Lyman Globes is their Shortest Globe, the 17AHB at .404 High, This allows me to keep my Peep Bridge Low, Instead of taking up a bunch of Peep Elevation like the Taller Globes. At my 100 Yard Zero i want my Peep Bridge as low as i can get it, the AHB allows me to do this :lewis:

    Here is a 17AHB Globe on 1 of my Green Mountain LRH Barrels
    [​IMG]

    This is setting on 100 Yard Zero, See how low i can keep my Peep Bridge, This leaves me a TON of Elevation adjustment if i desire to use it, i would rather have it available and not need it, than not have it available and need it
    [​IMG]

    Now here is my Lyman Great Plains Hunter rifle, this Is a taller Globe, the ONLY height Lyman has available in European Dovetail. This Peep is Set on my 100 Yard Zero, Now look at how much Height adjustment i have Lost here, I HATE this! I need to get this rifle out and Make the Dovetail American ;) So i can install the Lower 17AHB and Get this Peep Bridge SUBSTANTIALLY Lower :lewis:
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Apr 23, 2019 #11

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    Now to answer your Question ;) Shaver’s has like 3-4 Different 17 Series Globe heights, But i am 99.9% Sure his Shortest is .500, Before i did that i would Go with the Lyman 17AML at .494, The AML will put you just about exactly like My Lyman Great Plains Hunter Above (which i HATE the Peep bridge Height!)

    I have 4 of Lee’s Globe Fronts (2 of his Ferriss Creedmoor Adjustable Front Globes) they are nice no doubt! But in my Honest opinion i MUCH prefer the Lyman at 1/2 the Price. Shaver’s Globes have a Spirit Level in them, I don’t trust them at all!! I have done quite a Bit of experimenting with the Bubble in the Globe, and a Precise Carpenter level, I don’t believe the Globe Levels are Accurate in them, All of mine are out of my Shaver’s Globes and sitting on my Table. Shaver’s Globes cost 100 Bucks, The Lyman’s are 40.00, The Lyman’s Don’t come with a Level in them, If i were shooting a Steady Diet of ULTRA long Range i would Work DILIGENTLY at getting an Accurate Globe Bubble level, But if you don’t plan to Shoot REALLY Long Range, My advice is to Save 50 Bucks and go with the Lyman
     
  12. Apr 23, 2019 #12

    mikemci

    mikemci

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    Thank you again sir!
    You have cleared up all of the questions that were plaguing me, while searching for what I could buy, that would work for my gun.
     
  13. Apr 23, 2019 #13

    mikemci

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    Here's what I have ordered:
    1) Lyman 57SML
    2) Lyman 17AHB @ .404"
    3) Williams Aperture O.D.=1", I.D.=.05

    Have I gotten it right....I hope ?
     
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  14. Apr 24, 2019 #14

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    That is PRECISELY my Setup :lewis:
     
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  15. Apr 24, 2019 #15

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    Drilling and tapping for Peep sight, How to find Dead Center of Tang

    This is for education purposes only, You would be doing this with the Tang out of your Rifle of Course! This is just to Show you how to EASILY find Center of the Tang.

    First, Measure the width of the Tang, all of the TC’s i have done Measure .500 across, Measure and make sure.
    [​IMG]

    Now that we know the Tang is .500 Across, half of that is .250, Adjust calipers to .250 and Lock them down. With my Stainless calipers i can lightly Scribe a line here. Even if your Tang Measures Slightly Different than .500 just Take whatever the Full width measurement is and Cut that in Half
    [​IMG]

    Now Flip the Calipers over and check from the other side, you will note the Lightly scribed line will match perfectly from this side :lewis: This is DEAD CENTER of your Tang.
    [​IMG]


    All that’s left to do now is place the Lyman 57 on the Tang, use the Rear Tang Screw Through the 57 Base, This will Hold it FIRMLY in place, use a pencil and Mark the Front sight Base hole. Now Drill and Tap to 8-32, You can buy this Bit and Tap in a Kit, this is mine
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Apr 24, 2019 #16

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    And lastly, Taking the Tilt/Forward lean out of the Lyman 57

    First, Push the Button, pull the Slider out and set it aside. The Lyman 57 has a Nice Flat Top surface, use this to your advantage
    [​IMG]


    The Lyman 57 Has a Tendency to Lean Forward, Lay a flat edge on the Top of the Lyman 57’s Flat Base and you will find that it Leans/tilts forward, Like this
    [​IMG]

    Here is How I correct Lean/Tilt (All of my Rifles are like this) I use Stainless Washers that are the Width of the Tang, and the 8-32 Screw will just fit through the Washer hole. On average, I ad 1 washer under the Rear of the Sight Base, and how ever many i need up Front to Correct the Forward Lean, This varies from Rifle to Rifle, You simply need to play around here and get the Base as Close as you possibly can, Being off a tiny bit one way or the other is Fine, all we are doing here is correcting the LARGEST of it.
    [​IMG]

    Here is what i am Looking for, when i place a Straight edge on the top Flat surface of the Lyman 57 Base i want the Straight edge to Run as Close as possible to Straight in line with my Stock/Barrel, Like this
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Apr 24, 2019 #17

    bubba.50

    bubba.50

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    Just a note. If you order the 57 for the Great Plains rifle instead of for Hawken/Renegade you get the exact same sight but it also comes with a spacer that could be used & maybe save ya a handful of washers.
     
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  18. Apr 24, 2019 #18

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    You could Fabricate a Wedge type Shim to go under the Sight Base instead of the Washers if you prefer, it might look a little better under a Microscope, but is Totally unnecessary. I can assure this Washer Setup is Durable, EXTREMELY DURABLE. I could Stand on my Sight bases and not move them :lewis:
     
  19. Apr 24, 2019 #19

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    We were typing at the same time bubba! You are correct about the Shim, if it’s available USE IT! The GPR 57 Comes with it
     
  20. Apr 24, 2019 #20

    Idaholewis

    Idaholewis

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    Might as well Strike while the Iron is Hot :)

    How to install a Lyman 17 series Globe front Sight (Or Any Front Sight For that matter)

    Things needed, Padded Vise, A Brass Drift Punch, and a 3 corner file with a “Safe Side” Both of these can be made at Home. A Modified Brass Bolt works fine, or better yet a piece of Round Stock brass about 3-4 inches long. The Brass Drift punch is so you Don’t damage the Barrel, Sight

    It is VERY Likely your new 17 Globe Front sight will be to tight to fit your Dovetail, All of the Lyman 17 Globes i have done so far have been Tight, To tight, They needed Fitting to my Dovetail, Lyman makes them a little on the Large side so they can be fitted, 99.9% of Stock US Barrel Dovetails with be 3/8” (.375) The Lyman 17 Globes i have measured come in closer to .380
    You can spend the BIG BUCKS and Buy an actual Gun Smithing Dovetail file like these, They have a “Safe Side” 1 of the 3 Flats is Smooth, this allows the file to slide back n forth in your Dovetail (Safe side down) and not cut, You are ONLY Cutting, enlarging the Dove Angle.
    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...l-standard-slot-sight-base-files-prod698.aspx

    Or you could get a Small 3 Corner file at your local Hardware like i chose to do, i ground 1 Cutting edge off Square on a Hard Bench mounted Belt Sander to make a “Safe Side” (mine is a Nicholson, AWESOME files :lewis:)
    [​IMG]


    This is Somewhat of a Tedious process, GO SLOW and CHECK OFTEN!

    If you only need a few Thou removed to fit, you can take it off the Bottom of the Sight Dove itself, I don’t recommend doing this if it’s Anymore than a few Thou, Any more than that and you need to Either Take material Away from the Front sight Dovetail (make it smaller) or Open the Barrel Dovetail (make it bigger) i have done both, i prefer slightly enlarging the Barrel Dovetail, I place the Barrel in a Padded Vise and Snug it up to do this.

    On the other Hand, if your Front sight fits to loose in the Barrel Dovetail, If it is just loose enough that you don’t fully trust it from possibly moving, Use some Red Loctite! That will HOLD IT LIKE A ROCK, yet you can stil Drift it out. But if the Front sight is Quite loose, You will need to Build the Bottom of the Sight Dovetail up with Shim stock until you get it Tight.

    NONE of this stuff is hard to do, grab the Bull by the Horns and do it! Quit Paying a Gunsmith to do these SIMPLE things!
     

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