Green Mountain Stainless .45/.50 “Switch Rig”

[LR_Smoker]

What type lead are you using? If pure or close to it you may be pushing them too fast? I know with pure lead they don’t recommend going over 1400fps.

I have resolved most of my issues with the 45-70 however my question was directed to Lewis shooting certified pure lead bore riders out of a cap lock muzzleloader. He’s actually pushing them a lot harder using roughly 80 grains of Swiss 2 F than I do at 58.5 grains of Swiss 1.5 in my 45-70. I want to shoot bore riders in my .50’s and I most likely will follow the proven loads that have been published by Lewis and others that have posted on this site. Obviously the choice of lubricant, amount and type of powder, size, fit and type of over powder wad, fit of the projectile in the barrel and several other factors affect leading.

 

[LR_Smoker]

try 16-1 in your 45-70 and wipe withat least 8-1 distilled water and machine cutting oil.

That would certainly help with leading in a 45-70 for target use however am I going to have to use the same approach with a muzzleloader ? 16-1 will be very hard to use as a hunting bullet and most likely result in less efficiency going thru the chest cavity of a game animal. I would also suspect that a hard bore rider like that would be hard to get to obturate unless it would be sized thru a false muzzle or similar sizing die that cuts the rifling on the way in. In either event I question the effectiveness of a hard bullet on game such as white tail deer.

 

[Renegadehunter]

I believe I've read from Lew that he just doesn't see leading issues and believes that can be attributed to using 1/8" wool wads, he uses one size up, such as a .54 wad when using a .50, and a .50 wad when using his .45.
I'm sure he'll chime in soon.

 

[Idaholewis]

Do you ever experience leading using pure lead grease grove bore riders ? In my 45-70 I shoot something similar and it is one of the issues that I have to deal with because accuracy goes south after a number of shots if the leading is not removed using bronze wool or something similar.

Lube has a LOT to do with Leading, Along with Over Powder Wads, They make a BIG Difference in Leading Control as well, I incorporate an ingredient in my Lubes that STOPS Leading in Muzzleloaders. Cartridge Guns are a Different deal, Your Bullet Exits the Cartridge Case, entering a Forcing Cone, I suspect a Lot of Lube is Lost Here, Blown out Behind the Bullet. In a Muzzleloader on the other hand, the Barrel is the Cartridge, When the Charge Sets off, The Bullet Obturates filling the Grooves, Carrying the Lube tightly Compressed in the Grooves, dispersing it along it’s way through the Bore. Using my Lube, and OP Wads, I NEVER get leading (I do get Leading with other Lubes) I have been helping a Competitive Shooter with a Really Nice Old Hepburn Cartridge gun, Since he started using my Lube (“Anti Leading“ ingredient) Leading has decreased GREATLY, Without my Lube, Leading was HORRIBLE for him, He casts 20-1 Alloy, And is one of the Best Bullet Casters i have ever seen

 

[LR_Smoker]

Lube has a LOT to do with Leading, Along with Over Powder Wads, They make a BIG Difference in Leading Control as well, I incorporate an ingredient in my Lubes that STOPS Leading in Muzzleloaders. Cartridge Guns are a Different deal, Your Bullet Exits the Cartridge Case, entering a Forcing Cone, I suspect a Lot of Lube is Lost Here, Blown out Behind the Bullet. In a Muzzleloader on the other hand, the Barrel is the Cartridge, When the Charge Sets off, The Bullet Obturates filling the Grooves, Carrying the Lube tightly Compressed in the Grooves, dispersing it along it’s way through the Bore. Using my Lube, and OP Wads, I NEVER get leading (I do get Leading with other Lubes) I have been helping a Competitive Shooter with a Really Nice Old Hepburn Cartridge gun, Since he started using my Lube (“Anti Leading“ ingredient) Leading has decreased GREATLY, Without my Lube, Leading was HORRIBLE for him, He casts 20-1 Alloy, And is one of the Best Bullet Casters i have ever seen

Thanks for the reply. I can see your logic on how cartridge and muzzleloader firearms are different and it makes a lot of sense.
I have a 1/8” thick piece of hard felt and I can make a punch for any diameter that I want so that aspect is not an issue. I also have very limited quantity of SPG lube and perhaps 2 lbs of Bullshop lube that can be used as a base for a lube. Obviously I don’t have your secret recipe for lube so that aspect is a lot more challenging.
From your previous posts you mentioned the lube should be as soft as possible to just stay in the grooves although I would imagine that it would be dependent on the ambient temperature at the time.
Once again I thank you for time to reply and the advice that you have offered.

 

[Idaholewis]

Thanks for the reply. I can see your logic on how cartridge and muzzleloader firearms are different and it makes a lot of sense.
I have a 1/8” thick piece of hard felt and I can make a punch for any diameter that I want so that aspect is not an issue. I also have very limited quantity of SPG lube and perhaps 2 lbs of Bullshop lube that can be used as a base for a lube. Obviously I don’t have your secret recipe for lube so that aspect is a lot more challenging.
From your previous posts you mentioned the lube should be as soft as possible to just stay in the grooves although I would imagine that it would be dependent on the ambient temperature at the time.
Once again I thank you for time to reply and the advice that you have offered.

This is the “KEY” ingredient in my Lubes that STOPS Barrel Leading. To 1 pound of Bullshop‘s NASA i add 2 of the Little Bottles. Make sure and use a Double Boiler type Setup, DON’T Melt over Direct Heat or you Risk Scorching it

 

[Idaholewis]

Make sure you use the EXACT stuff that i showed above, STIHL HP ULTRA (it is a Full Synthetic 2 Stroke Engine Oil) There might be other 2 Stroke engine oils that would Work, But since i haven’t tried them i can’t Speak for them? I can DEFINITELY Speak for STIHL HP ULTRA, if this stuff is incorporated in your Bullet Lube, Leading will STOP, or be GREATLY Diminished.

 

[Idaholewis]

To a 1/2 Pound Block of Regular Formula SPG, use 1 of the Small Bottles of STIHL HP ULTRA, And 1 Stick of Lyman Alox. This is the EXACT Recipe in several of my Shooting Videos (Along with the Bullshop NASA that i listed above)

https://www.buffaloarms.com/spg-1-2-pound-block-spg12
https://www.lymanproducts.com/alox-lube
https://www.acehardware.com/departm...ine/fluids-and-lubrication/lubricants/1001515
In a Double Boiler Setup, Melt the SPG and Stick of Lyman Alox, Stir in the the Small Bottle (2.6 Oz) of Stihl HP Ultra

 

[edmehlig]

You threw me Lew. Thought for sure is was going to be your Skunk lard.

 

[LR_Smoker]

To a 1/2 Pound Block of Regular Formula SPG, use 1 of the Small Bottles of STIHL HP ULTRA, And 1 Stick of Lyman Alox. This is the EXACT Recipe in several of my Shooting Videos (Along with the Bullshop NASA that i listed above)

https://www.buffaloarms.com/spg-1-2-pound-block-spg12
https://www.lymanproducts.com/alox-lube
https://www.acehardware.com/departm...ine/fluids-and-lubrication/lubricants/1001515
In a Double Boiler Setup, Melt the SPG and Stick of Lyman Alox, Stir in the the Small Bottle (2.6 Oz) of Stihl HP Ultra

OMG ! THANK YOU !
I appreciate you sharing this with me. Leading has always been an issue with me and even with using the Lee Shaver break-in method, SPG , NASA or any of the other concoctions that I have tried it has always raised its ugly head at the most inconvenient time. You can be sure I will try to follow your instructions to the letter. Thanks again.

 

[GM54-120]

Interesting SDS for that Stihl oil. I looked because its labeled biodegradable. One source it can be made from is Palm Oil.
https://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdfBase Oil: Trimethylolpropane Complex Ester 80–100%

 

[Idaholewis]

Here is a good example of Speed, and ZERO Leading with a PURE LEAD Bullet. Nearly 1800 Fps with a 240 Grain 45 Cal Maxi Ball, Accuracy wasn’t great, But there was ZERO Leading with my Lube. Try this with ANY other Lube out there, you will be Working to Remove Lead from your Barrel, I know this from LOTS of Trial & Error
Stihl HP Ultra will Stop, or at least DRASTICALLY Reduce Barrel Leading, Especially so in Muzzleloaders.

This is Sizzling Right along for a SOFT, Certified PURE Lead Bullet. Again, I had ZERO Leading here. I have pushed much Harder than this just to Test, Closer to 2,000 Fps, And stil NO Leading

 

[LR_Smoker]

Here is a good example of Speed, and ZERO Leading with a PURE LEAD Bullet. Nearly 1800 Fps with a 240 Grain 45 Cal Maxi Ball, Accuracy wasn’t great, But there was ZERO Leading with my Lube. Try this with ANY other Lube out there, you will be Working to Remove Lead from your Barrel, I know this from LOTS of Trial & Error
Stihl HP Ultra will Stop, or at least DRASTICALLY Reduce Barrel Leading, Especially so in Muzzleloaders.

This is Sizzling Right along for a SOFT, Certified PURE Lead Bullet. Again, I had ZERO Leading here. I have pushed much Harder than this just to Test, Closer to 2,000 Fps, And stil NO Leading

Just totally amazing. Can’t wait to be able to cast my own Bullets and lube them up with your mixture. You are a great help to all of us trying to learn the mysteries of precision muzzleloader shooting. Just can’t thank you enough.

 

[Russ4iam]

Lewis whenever you get around to writing a book I'll be first in line!

 

[Harleysboss]

Hey Lewis, Are you pan lubing your bullets using the above formulas?

 

[Idaholewis]

Hey Lewis, Are you pan lubing your bullets using the above formulas?

No, Since i usually shoot Groups of 6 Shots, maybe 12 at Most, I just lube them by Hand, then push them through my Sizer. I would definitely Pan Lube If i were doing any Real Quantity. I am the same way when i Cast Bullets, I don’t have any Stock pile so to Speak, i usually Cast just a Few more than i plan to Shoot/Test

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I just got 5 of the 2.6oz bottles of that Stihl oil. I already have 2# of the nasa lube. Im going to make up a half pound of that lube this week some time. And I got a new mold im hoping to cast with soon, to try out the new recipe on.

 

[MrTom]

mmuzzy.... are you going to try the Stihl oil as a barrel oil for storage? I'd be interested what you think of the oil in that aspect.

 

[daveheffner110]

Lewis, this thread is expanding, so I hope I don't hijack anything.

I have a new drop in barrel for my stock Renegade. It is a 15/16 and has a 1-66 twist for great round ball shooting. However, the stock hammer does not align with the nipple. I will look for another hammer and fit it to that barrel.

I think I will need to replace my front sight (reason for the post). What is the size of the dovetail on a stock Renegade. I have the Lyman 57 SML sight on the back.

Very nice whitetail on the other post.

 

[Idaholewis]

I just got 5 of the 2.6oz bottles of that Stihl oil. I already have 2# of the nasa lube. Im going to make up a half pound of that lube this week some time. And I got a new mold im hoping to cast with soon, to try out the new recipe on.

It’s DARN Good Stuff I held back posting about it until i thoroughly tested it. I know Bullshop Dan uses an ingredient in his NASA That is Suppose to Stop, or Greatly Reduce Leading, I let my BPCR Cartridge Friend Try some of my UNTREATED NASA Lube in a Cartridge Gun, He said Leading was Bad, About the Same as Straight SPG, The one that he Noted made a HUGE difference was my Stihl HP Ultra Mixture

This is “Bull plate“ Sprue Plate Lube directly from Bullshop, Take a Wild Guess what you think it is? Lead simply will NOT stick to a Surface Coated with Stihl HP Ultra, I have HARSH tested it in 2 Different Ways