Happy to get into SL MLs but not sure about....

[ziva]

Hey there,

First of all, great forum, discussions and people out there!

I started shooting with airrifles, like XP Airguns, extremebigboreairrifles etc. and then under supervision with a Rem 700 .308.

Doing all of this in Czech Republic, as I'm visiting my parents in law frequently there.

Due to restrictions, I decided to start with BP ML, which was a Vortek .50. Those weapons are allowed over here without license, which makes it interesting for me to start with MLs.

Sold the Vortek, as it was poor quality and a pain to clean BPs. Reading a lot on the web, got more and more interested in the smokeless stuff.
Fast figuring out that there is lot of stuff available but not really off the shelf.

Therefore my question to you out here...

I'm definitely willing to invest in a good quality smokeless ML rifle but the range is 1.000 bugs up with "open limits".

I cannot judge, if a custom built rifle for 3.000+ is necessary or even worth it. Again, I'm not questioning the work of the custom builders but for sure, don't want to spend too much, when they are calling this high amount of $$$ and if that's not necessary.

I'm very impressed about the high quality, as the custom builds look like, which I saw.

I'm looking for an accurate and good quality smokeless rifle to be used on the range only. No hunting. Range around 350 yards.

What do you suggest and think about rifles from

1. Jeff Hankins
2. Arrowhead
3. NULA
4. BeStill
5. Swinglock
6. Badbullmuzzleloaders
7. Ultimatefirearms
8. Bearcreekballistics
9. Gunwerks
10. CBJ
11. Kash ML750 action
12. ...

Maybe there are way more custom builders out there, which I'm not aware of. At least those listed, I found during my research.

Number 1 - 5 are my favourites but as mentioned, I don't know, if the pricing is worth it or let's say, if there are options as good as this quality for less $$$.
Just read in another thread about custom builts and if these are as good as they are somehow praised by the builders and users.
Sure, a very good and expensive built rifle does not make the shooter behind better.

Clear to me at all for sure, if you are able and have the right tooling set-up, you can get it for way less.

Even, which action would you rate over another - bolt action over a break action or wise versa?

I absolutely like both actions in fact. Think the Swinglock is a really great choice because you also have less mechanics on the action.

Or is even a CVA Scout V2 converted to ML smokeless a good match for the range shooting up to 300yd?

I hope I'm not bothering you with all my thoughts and questions but I'd like to choose the right direction from the beginning before I'm investing in something, which I'll be not happy with....
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and guidance to make the right decision.

André

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

If I were doing a range rifle, it would be built with a Remington 700 single shot stainless steel short action with a direct ignition LRMP breech plug.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Please note...……….. Ultimate Firearms ARE NOT smokeless muzzleloaders. They are for blackpowder or black powder substitutes ONLY.

 

[ziva]

Encore50A, thx for clarification. I missed that, while writing down the list of custom builders, which I checked within the last couple of weeks.

 

[ENCORE50A]

There are a number of really good and high quality muzzleloader rifle builders. I have one in progress currently, one that will be more capable than this old man

Not taking away from any other rifle builder, and there are a number of great ones, Bestill Creations was my choice for my upcoming rifle.

In just a random order, NOT placing one over the other, these would be the builders I would consider first. Not in any specific order, as they are all great builders..... and although Bestill is building my rifle, it will have parts from the other two mentioned below.

Arrowhead Rifles
Bestill Creations
LR Customs

Others may have different opinions...….

 

[lwh723]

Encore50A's list is a good one. I would chop the bottom half of your list off and throw it in the trash can. Several in that section that border on a scam, so do your research. I think Nula and Gunwerks only do 50cal, so I would cross them off your list too. A scout V2 can get deer good accuracy to 300 yards.

 

[GM54-120]

You can not buy a NULA M209 anymore from Melvin. He quit making them and they were never intended to be long range rifles. He did make a few 45s and they are super rare. Sabots only also, the barrel contour is very light for sabotless. He might be willing to sell just the action. His model 20 RF action is under $1000 for single shot. The M209 is loosely based on that action.

Gunwerks used to make a sweet action. Similar to a Rem40X rimfire with rear lugs. New ones might be different. 50cal only as mentioned and crazy expensive.

Swinglocks are very very nice but good luck ordering one. He has been backed up for ages. You will probably be waiting years to get one.

All the other options are based on FFL restricted actions. Not really sure how or IF a builder is going to be able to ship one to the Czech Republic or Germany.

 

[ziva]

Thanks for your feedback and thoughts to this point.

lwh723, you made a very good point here. Back in the day, I ended up, being scammed from a "custom builder" for an air pistol in cal. .308. The money was lost though

Sure, I absolutely don't want to experience this again. Therefore going to get some good advise from all of you here.

GM54-120, I would need to get it shipped to CZ, in case I'll find one.

Looks like that my list is reduced to

• Hankins
• Arrowhead
• BeStill
• Swinglock

First two ones start at >3.000 I guess. Doesn't mean that they will not be considered in general!

BeStill, I don't know so far.

Swinglock might be a dream due to building time / availability. In addition, I don't find that much information about them.

Any idea of an alternative with same design?

And how do you think about the designs - break action and bolt action? Would you recommend one over the other?

Thx

 

[jims]

A friend of mine that has a Swinglock told me that they said they would be finishing SMLs on backorder but not taking any new SML orders. You might want to check that for sure. Still making reducing dies etc. however

 

[ziva]

Jims, that would be a pity. I already shoot an email to Thomas from swinglock but didn't receive a response so far.

 

[GM54-120]

Ive talked to 2 people that both told me the same thing. Swinglock is not taking new SML orders atm. Both were told to check back later....like a year or more later.

 

[Squeeze]

I have been trying to order a swinglock for years. Every time, I get told not taking any more new orders, try again in about 8 months. Wait 8 months, same thing repeated. At least 4 years now. and quote estimates were all 5k and up now.

 

[richie332]

If I had a FFL my hat would be in the ring with these other builders mentioned. Shipping is a problem if the action is registered as "center fire!" If it is a muzzle loader action, then I can deal with it. Jeff Hankins would be my choice since I know and shoot with him twice a year and have out shot him and his rifle just as he has out shot me? All these rifles mainly depend on the barrel to create accuracy. That along with the proper ignition system for the powders being used, a good trigger and a stock that has a decent bedding job. Add to that a solid scope mount and good scope along with an owner that can pull the trigger without disrupting the sight picture and favorable wind/mirage conditions and you get "an accurate rifle!" The problem is, most can't shoot an accurate rifle up to the quality of the gun. Competitive long range benchrest shooters generally have an edge since they are acutely aware of what it takes to make a good rifle into a winner.
If a SML is put together on say....a Rem. 700 action (don't matter if it is a single shot or has an opening for a magazine {ADL/BDL} with a good cut rifled barrel (Krieger/Brux to name two) with Hank's Ignition System (HIS) or Direct Ignition, you have the makings for as ACCURATE a muzzle loader as can be built by anyone. And yes, that includes Swinglock's. I have shot also with Be Still and out shot him on a couple of occasions. Why? I got more lucky then him? Once you have good equipment, its a matter of picking the right wind conditions and having a good load combination.
The main thing when picking a builder for your rifle is his reputation for reliability! Can he produce your quality rifle in the time he alleges? Too many of these guys take on more work than they can get out the door in their projected delivery date? You need to be comfortable with your builder.....Ask point blank: Can you deliver on the time you tell me? If he "abba dabs" you? Pick another and get references. Right now, I know Jeff (Hankins) is covered up with work and his new venture of producing "parts" for these builds. He as asked me to take some work, but without the FFL, I have turned it down.
Good luck!

 

[ziva]

Hi there,

Thanks for all your feedback on my topic, really appreciate it!

Last night, I was thinking how to continue....

Decided to still getting a SL muzzleloader! Also could be that I might follow up and order one of those expensive ones.

I called Jeff couple of minutes ago and have had a very nice conversation

I followed up with him on my mail I sent him last week, as I thought it would be better to speak with him directly.
He told me that he only excepts orders for complete custom muzzleloaders using manners or mcmillan stocks. Prices start at 4500.00 and he has a 14-16 month back log.

I was looking for the SPML-45, which he is offering on his webpage starting at 2.850. It's not offered anymore, he said.

On the swinglock... am I correct that the design is kind of the one from the CVA Scout V2? Jeff has those converted to SL, starting at 750 bugs. Available at hanksprecisiongunparts.
I mentioned earlier that I'm not able to find more close up pictures of these rifles nor vids. Thomas from swinglock didn't get back to me on my mail.

On the export and import... right, an export license is needed to send this stuff over to CZ. Jeff doesn't have an export license but most likely, I can arrange that through some fellows in the US. Already working on it.

I'm probably giving Arrowhead and BeStill a call, too to see what they recommend.

For now, Jeff is my first choice, if I'm going to order a new rifle. He's really a great guy. Would like to meet him in person one day.

Maybe there are other options, depending on further information being shared here.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

$4500 bugs......I had the same thing happen to me, his website says one thing and he quotes you another higher price...Have you considered a 45 cal. fast twist Knight Mountaineer with Bestill's upgraded ignition system? That should be a 350 yard gun easy...not smokeless but gives you a lot gun for your money.

 

[ziva]

BuckDoeHunter, indeed that's a lot of $$$ for this hobby. Looks like the demand got higher around the Countries and as a consequence also the pricing of all the custom builds

 

[ziva]

Just received feedback from Thomas....

Unfortunately, Swing-Lock is no longer making rifles because the demand for adjustable bullet sizing dies turned out to be greater than expected. The greater profitability and demand proved a better business path so the riles were discontinued.
Sorry for the disappointment.

So unfortunately, Swinglock is out of my initial list

Only a used one coupd be an option though but never saw any out there on the message boards.

 

[ziva]

BugDoeHunter, on your point about a Knight Mountaineer.... if I'll not end up finding a good pathway for a SL , I would consider those options and use BH 209 or something like that.

But I really tend more to a SL

 

[ENCORE50A]

BugDoeHunter, on your point about a Knight Mountaineer.... if I'll not end up finding a good pathway for a SL , I would consider those options and use BH 209 or something like that.

But I really tend more to a SL

Its like Luke says...………. the best smokeless muzzleloaders make the best BH209 shooters. Or something like that

 

[lwh723]

Its like Luke says...………. the best smokeless muzzleloaders make the best BH209 shooters. Or something like that

It's true