Hardcast Conicals

[Bill_N]

Looking for a source for hardcast 50 caliber conicals suitable for large game.

 

[HC]

The only ones I cast for 50 cals are .490 round balls and TC maxiballs. It would be helpful to know what twist barrel you are shooting.

 

[Bill_N]

1 in 48 in my T/C caplock. Are yours pure lead or alloy?

 

[HC]

I call it pure lead, but it probably would check as 40-1 BHN. It cuts easily with the thumbnail.

 

[Jitterbug]

Note- the links are showing up with “wordy” titles in my post… not sure what’s going on(?). Hopefully, they still work correctly!
————

You need to contact Dave, at “No Excuses Bullets!” In fact, I’m pretty sure that he’s exactly who you need to talk to!
Come buy our muzzle loading bullets. They are simply the best available.

He was very responsive to my emails, and was very patient with me. I don’t know how hard Dave’s bullets are, but he could certainly tell you.

Dave offers a range of “.50 caliber” conical bullets from 420 grains to 600(!) grains: Muzzleloader Bullets Archives - NO EXCUSES MUZZLELOADING BULLETS

Dave offers “.50 caliber” bullets sized to .500, .501, .502, .503, or .504! Seems to me like a guy who understands muzzleloaders…

Dave offers (and recommends) “sizing packs,” so that you can figure out what diameter conical is likely to work best in your rifle. 50 Caliber Sizing Pack - NO EXCUSES MUZZLELOADING BULLETS 50 Caliber Muzzleloader Bullet Sizing

Dave also offers a “Sampler Pack” of his different weight bullets, in .503 or .500 diameters. 50 Caliber Sampler Pack - NO EXCUSES MUZZLELOADING BULLETS

I can’t speak for him, but I would think he might be willing to make up a Sampler Pack in one of his other diameters, if needed, and you were to ask nicely…

Dave also offers a range of saboted bullets, in various weights. His prices on bulk (empty) sabots are also about as low as I’ve seen!

I hate to sound like a total “fan boy…” but Dave just left me 110% impressed after my purchase from him, this winter!

 

[Bill_N]

I did some reading last night on lead hardness in muzzy bullets. I always thought Maxi-Balls were a harder lead than others I've used based on penetration, but others say they're "pure lead". I've seen the term "hard cast" used for pistol bullets loaded for bear protection or big game hunting but not for muzzy bullets. It would be nice to see a little more info on lead hardness on muzzy bullets.

I have used No Excuses bullets before, but it's been a long time. Maybe 15 years, and I never hunted with them since they didn't shoot well in my rifle. It was before he offered the sizing packs though.

 

[goco4game]

I did some reading last night on lead hardness in muzzy bullets. I always thought Maxi-Balls were a harder lead than others I've used based on penetration, but others say they're "pure lead". I've seen the term "hard cast" used for pistol bullets loaded for bear protection or big game hunting but not for muzzy bullets. It would be nice to see a little more info on lead hardness on muzzy bullets.

I have used No Excuses bullets before, but it's been a long time. Maybe 15 years, and I never hunted with them since they didn't shoot well in my rifle. It was before he offered the sizing packs though.

I have not proven this to be true, but this is what I was told maybe 20 years ago.
Thompson/Center Arms supposedly makes their Maxi-Balls and Maxi-Hunters by casting, rather than the swaging process, which bullets like the Hornady Great Plains, are made. Swaging/compressing/working lead makes it softer (unlike brass, which work-hardens). Therefore, using the same pure lead, the cast bullets come out harder than the swaged ones.
This may explain why you get more penetration with the T/C's.

 

[goco4game]

Looking for a source for hardcast 50 caliber conicals suitable for large game.

Some questions for you.
1.) What are you hunting?
2.) Why do you want to use hardcast bullets?
3.) Are you aware of the extra effort involved with using hardcast bullets?

For more than 20 years, I have been on a quest to find/make a better bullet than the Hornady Great Plains for hunting primarily elk, but also on down to antelope. The journey has led me through various blends of alloys, from pure lead to pure wheel weights, BHN 5 to 11, and not only casting my own bullets, but making my own molds. The road has been rocky and mostly unsuccessful. In the past, I have been a fierce advocate of penetration versus expansion, but I now find myself almost coming full circle. The experimentation continues....

 

[Bill_N]

The first maxi-balls I used were cast by a friend. I'm not sure what he used for lead but they may have been wheel weights. They shot right through deer with no apparent expansion. I never lost a deer shot with them but they all ran a ways so I quit using them. Until I booked a muzzleloader elk hunt in Colorado which has a requirement of using full bore bullets. After shooting a number of different bullets I tried maxi-balls again and they shot great out of my gun. I ended up taking a 5x5 with them. Good penetration and decent expansion with both bullets. I drew another muzzy tag in Colorado 2 years ago and used a more modern bullet that shot flatter. I ended up shooting a 5x6 at about 140 yards and hit him through one lung and the liver. He went down within 50 yards but got up and followed his cows up a ridge into the high sage and rocks. We found him the next morning and the bullet had flattened out like a pancake. Blood trail was really sparse and hard to follow. I can't help but wonder if a harder bullet would've exited.

 

[idahoron]

Back about 15 years ago I was told about the upcoming demise of the Hornady great plains 50 cal 410 gr bullet. Back then they shot great. I knew I needed to find a substitute. Honestly the 410 gr was awful on game and the 385 is worse.
I developed the Lee 500S&W bullet as a paper patched bullet. I harden them to between 6 and 7 bhn. It took aboutb2 years to perfect that bullet. In 2009 I took the first animal with them paper patched. They plow through all animals
I have seen close to 20 head of game taken with them. In 2020 I took a bull with them and found that bullet. It broke the shoulder took out the spine and was found in the off shoulder. It started out at 458 grains it ended up at 454.
A guy doesn't need lead harder than 9 bhn. I would tune the bullets to the gun. If the bullets are shooting great with lead about or a little harder than 6 bhn they will work well.

 

[mnoland30]

I used Precison Rifle 400 gr. .45 caliber bullets on elk. They were pure lead with a plastic tip and a boat tail. Shot great, but expanded to over an inch, and didn't exit. The pointed tip goes through the hide like a needle, so that side doesn't bleed. I shot a cow in the heart and she ran 75 yards. I've used hardcast bullets from Harvester that will go through an elk from stem to stern, but don't expand. They kill slower than I like. A large meplat and a bit harder than pure lead seem to be the ticket.

 

[Decay]

I believe what Idaho Ron has just shown is some of the best advice I have seen on this forum. That bullet has a round nose flat point. That shape imparts devastating shock to the animal. After reading for years, I learned that there is no better bullet profile and I use no other bullet profile in my casting, both rifle and pistol. The Brinell hardness of 6-7 is based on an alloy of lead with a bit of tin and maybe a bit of Antimony. My alloy is 96% lead, 2% tin, and 2% Antimony. Dropping to1% Tin and 1% Antimony might be better. This alloy is malleable. Bullets are not brittle and do not break apart into pieces. You see Ron's bullet mushroomed perfectly and held together in one piece, only losing a few grains of weight, after hitting large bones in a big tough animal. Absolutely perfect! No pointy plastic tip that turns it into a hollowpoint, thereby increasing expansion and reducing penetration. On deer they pass through with great shock and don't destroy all the meat they hit. This profile and hardness has been killing big stuff and small stuff better than anything for a 150 years. They don't have the high ballistic coefficient as the sleek pointy bullets. At long range they have a rainbow trajectory. You have to learn how your rifle shoots them. You do this by practicing and learning. But they hit real hard at long distance.

 

[Bill_N]

Great discussion! How are you guys hardening the lead? Are you buying it that way?

I was aware of the Brinell hardness scale but not what hardness would be considered hard cast. Somewhere I read 12-30 would be considered hard cast. But not knowing how hard the bullets I’ve used are makes it a little more difficult to judge what’s desired.

I have some pics of the bullets I’ve recovered on my PC I’ll post when I get home.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Great discussion! How are you guys hardening the lead? Are you buying it that way?

I was aware of the Brinell hardness scale but not what hardness would be considered hard cast. Somewhere I read 12-30 would be considered hard cast. But not knowing how hard the bullets I’ve used are makes it a little more difficult to judge what’s desired.

I have some pics of the bullets I’ve recovered on my PC I’ll post when I get home.

Buffalo Arms is a good place to order it. Heres 30:1 link
https://www.buffaloarms.com/1-30-alloy-pure-certified-b-1-30.htmlI also buy from rotometals
https://www.rotometals.com/1-to-30-bullet-alloy-ingot-5-pounds-97-lead-3-tin/

 

[Decay]

There are a few ways to harden lead. You harden lead by adding 1% or 2% tin. Tin makes lead flow better and it hardens it 1 or 2 on the Brinell hardness scale. If you add Antimony to the lead/tin alloy it gets harder yet. You should add the same % of Antimony as you do Tin; that makes the alloy mix uniformly. Third, you can water quench the bullet as you drop it from the mould. Fill a five gallon bucket with water. Put a thick rag (old terrycloth towel) in the bottom of the bucket for the bullets to fall on. These bullets will be very hard on the Brinell scale. Somewhere between 20 and 30. Good for use in pistols for target practice; they don't expand.

 

[Decay]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Manual is a great reference book for casting. Then Cast Bullet Society is another great website to learn from.
As Michigan Muzzy said, I've also found RotoMetals is the best source for buying Lead, Tin and Antimony alloys. If I remember correctly (stop laughing) you can order the alloy you want. They probably have it already; they've been around a long time. They cater to bullet casters and their service has been excellent.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Tip for those who don't know, over heating lead alloy can seperate the tin out of it. Can be helpfull or hurtfull depending on your goal. Get a good thermometer if you're casting your own. Not sure if it holds true for antimony.

 

[idahoron]

Tip for those who don't know, over heating lead alloy can seperate the tin out of it. Can be helpfull or hurtfull depending on your goal. Get a good thermometer if you're casting your own. Not sure if it holds true for antimony.

I have read a lot about alloy. From what I have read it is impossible to remove any alloy from lead for guys pouring lead in their garages.

 

[idahoron]

Great discussion! How are you guys hardening the lead? Are you buying it that way?

I was aware of the Brinell hardness scale but not what hardness would be considered hard cast. Somewhere I read 12-30 would be considered hard cast. But not knowing how hard the bullets I’ve used are makes it a little more difficult to judge what’s desired.

I have some pics of the bullets I’ve recovered on my PC I’ll post when I get home.

I have hundreds of pounds of reclaimed lead shot. I inherited it from my grandfather. It's dented and dinged. It doesn't pattern worth a darn. I use that to harden.
It has tin and antimony. When I pour bullets fresh bullets ate going to run .021 or so on my hardness tester. I increase the hardness to .035 ish. That puts a fresh hardness at a hard 5.
After it ages it's going to be .038 to .045
About 6 to 7 bhn.
In my case I'm paper patching my bullets then I size. If they age harden and they are too hard to size without stripping the paper I have put them in the oven and baked them at 400 for 20 minutes. That will soften them to size.
That problem doesn't happen very often for me.
Mixing in lead like I do can ruin a lot of lead if done wrong. Ordering lead at the hardness you prefer is easier but tuning that hardness to what the rifle likes can be fun and very satisfying when that bullet slaps a bull elk on his a$$.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I have read a lot about alloy. From what I have read it is impossible to remove any alloy from lead for guys pouring lead in their garages.

If you get the lead over 1000°f for extended periods, couple hours, some of the tin will start to 'burn' out and and make a thick yellow crust on top.
It has happened to me with 40:1 from both baco and rotometals but not with pure. Ive heard it mentioned before. Ill try to find that source.