Help choosing a rifle for Montana weapons restrictions

[MTScott]

Howdy folks, new member here.

So I've wanted to get a muzzle loader for some time now, but haven't quite had enough excuse, other than... it's cool and who doesn't need one more gun.

That said muzzle load rifles have a place in Montana weapons restricted hunting areas, which is excuse enough for me. They can be used along with crossbow, pistols, shotgun slug. bow, etc...

I'd prefer a "modern" muzzle load rifle, but these rules seem a bit archaic, maybe pushing folks to use OLD musket style benjamin martin red coat slayer guns.; however, I really know nothing at this point, which is why I'm here.

I'm going to paste in the rules here from the Montana regulations, and hope some of the experts can point me to the proper gun, bullets, powder, etc...

• Must not be capable of being loaded from the breech of the barrel;
• May not be loaded with any preprepared paper or metallic cartridges;
• must be charged with black powder, pyrodex, or an equivalent;
• Must be ignited by a percussion, flintlock, matchlock, or wheelock mechanism;
• Must be a minimum of .45 caliber;
• May have no more than two barrels;
• Must only use plain lead projectiles;
• Sabots or other similar power and range-enhancing manufactured loads that enclose the projectile from the rifling or bore of the firearm are prohibited. “Skirts” or gas checks on the base of a projectile are acceptable.

I assume that for "plain lead projectiles", this would meet that rule: Hornady Great Plains Muzzleloading Bullets 50 Cal 385 Grain Lead

Do the restrictions on ignition types apply to any modern muzzle load rifles?

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Bushfire]

By modern muzzleloader you're referring to an inline, these are excluded by their ignition type rules. Don't fret, a good percussion rifle is going to do everything an inline can do. And if you follow Lewis' videos you will see they can exceed it. Those great plains will kill deer but there are far better options out there especially for elk. I'm sure more knowledgeable guys will chime in.

"Benjamin Martin" aka the brutal slave owner Francis Marion was using a flintlock which preceeded percussion. Rocklock as they're called is very appropriate, very cool but not as reliable as percussion in crappy weather generally. Matchlock are as they sound ignited by a wick which is lit by a match and wheel locks use friction - not popular hunting guns today.

I for one am glad inlines aren't included, makes it worthwhile applying for the tag. Otherwise they get very popular very quickly.

My suggestion would be a 50 or 54 percussion with decent twist rate that allows you to shoot conicals. Real black powder probably in FFG would be a safe bet. There are plenty of bullets e.g. hornady GP, powerbelt do a lead bullet with the plastic skirt mentioned in the regs, but then you have No excuse which have a reasonable reputation, and you could of course cast your own. But there really are lots of options.

 

[GM54-120]

How much do you want to spend?

Sounds to me like 209s, anything but pure lead and sabots are illegal. I dont see scopes or "open ignition" mentioned. On the lower end i think you can get a CVA Optima V2 50cal in a percussion model and that should conform to the regulations for $300ish. Might be able to get a non western version and add the percussion kit for a few bucks less and not have to buy a scope mount.
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/brands/cva-optimatm-v2-northwest-legal.html
In the middle you can get a Knight DISC Extreme then add the "Western Kit". Probably be in the $500-$600 range for that if they still have them on sale.
https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/disc-extreme-xtra-straight-muzzleloader/https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/western-legal-conversion-kit-52-cal-50-cal-and-45-cal/
Upper end would be a Knight UltraLite Western Edition in 45 1-20. That is gunna be about $900 and the most versatile unless you hunt a state that requires 50cal for elk. A scoped fast twist 45 will shoot big lead a long way with authority.
https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/olive-green-ultra-lite-muzzleloader/

 

[sabotloader]

MT Scott - I am in total agreement with GM54-120...

This is my older Knight DISC - Western

Knight Ultra Lite

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

Get yourself a good T/C Renegade, New Englander, Hawken, or Grey Hawk in .50 or .54cal. , then use REAL 2F BLACK POWDER, and get some Maxi-Ball, Maxi-Hunter, or just a plain round ball. Then....START MAKING SOME SMOKE!!

 

[GM54-120]

The Ultra Lite has a lot to offer when you consider everything. Low weight, great trigger, good bases are available for mounting a scope and its just hard to beat a 45cal 1-20. Easily converted back to 209 also if you can use it during less restricted hunts. So, like i said its extremely versatile.

 

[Bushfire]

How much do you want to spend?

Sounds to me like 209s, anything but pure lead and sabots are illegal. I dont see scopes or "open ignition" mentioned. On the lower end i think you can get a CVA Optima V2 50cal in a percussion model and that should conform to the regulations for $300ish. Might be able to get a non western version and add the percussion kit for a few bucks less and not have to buy a scope mount.
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/brands/cva-optimatm-v2-northwest-legal.html
In the middle you can get a Knight DISC Extreme then add the "Western Kit". Probably be in the $500-$600 range for that if they still have them on sale.
https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/disc-extreme-xtra-straight-muzzleloader/https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/western-legal-conversion-kit-52-cal-50-cal-and-45-cal/
Upper end would be a Knight UltraLite Western Edition in 45 1-20. That is gunna be about $900 and the most versatile unless you hunt a state that requires 50cal for elk. A scoped fast twist 45 will shoot big lead a long way with authority.
https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/olive-green-ultra-lite-muzzleloader/

I don't doubt it does, but where does this gun flirt the percussion loophole?

 

[SuperKirby]

I don't doubt it does, but where does this gun flirt the percussion loophole?

All the “Northwest” and “Western” models are set up with nipples for #11’s. The gun is legal, then it’s just figuring out the bullet. I thought I remembered reading scopes weren’t legal in MT but it was awhile ago that I looked into it so I would check that.

 

[Bushfire]

All the “Northwest” and “Western” models are set up with nipples for #11’s. The gun is legal, then it’s just figuring out the bullet. I thought I remembered reading scopes weren’t legal in MT but it was awhile ago that I looked into it so I would check that.

Percussion mechanisms to me are synonymous with cap lock mechanisms which are different to bolt actions? I see a firing pin from a bolt gun as very different to a percussion caplock. Or is it simply firing a #11 makes it a percussion?

 

[deermanok]

Percussion mechanisms to me are synonymous with cap lock mechanisms which are different to bolt actions? I see a firing pin from a bolt gun as very different to a percussion caplock. Or is it simply firing a #11 makes it a percussion?

Interesting point. My thought is that because it's not firing a self contained cartridge, it would be considered a percussion lock. Even if the mechanics of the gun is different from a traditional sidelock style.

 

[GM54-120]

Inline percussion is nothing new. The first H&R inlines sold back in the late 60s and early 70s were percussion. Actually percussion inlines are even much older than that.

Some PACNW states specifically say you MUST HAVE OPEN IGNITION. As in the ignition source has to be open to the elements. I dont see that in the MT regs. The CVA western models do conform to all PACNW regs as far as i can tell.

Must be ignited by a percussion, flintlock, matchlock, or wheelock mechanism

There is nothing that says HOW the cap needs to be struck or that a sidelock is the only legal method. It only states how the powder has to be ignited.

 

[ram2]

All the “Northwest” and “Western” models are set up with nipples for #11’s. The gun is legal, then it’s just figuring out the bullet.

The all lead Powerbelts would be legal.

 

[JBushnell]

Inline percussion is nothing new. The first H&R inlines sold back in the late 60s and early 70s were percussion. Actually percussion inlines are even much older than that.

Some PACNW states specifically say you MUST HAVE OPEN IGNITION. As in the ignition source has to be open to the elements. I dont see that in the MT regs. The CVA western models do conform to all PACNW regs as far as i can tell.

Must be ignited by a percussion, flintlock, matchlock, or wheelock mechanism

There is nothing that says HOW the cap needs to be struck or that a sidelock is the only legal method. It only states how the powder has to be ignited.

Yes, there is...



For those that want to read the law: https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2021/billpdf/HB0242.pdf

MTScott - I'm in Helena. Sent you a PM. Thx

 

[carpd]

Buffalo arms, Bullshop and No Excuses among others all produce conicals that would work well I believe if you wanted try something other than the Hornady GPB.

 

[Bushfire]

Yes, there is...

View attachment 14441

For those that want to read the law: https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2021/billpdf/HB0242.pdf

MTScott - I'm in Helena. Sent you a PM. Thx

That rules out all the "western" inlines then I think? I think the OP misread a few things and I'm guilty of not reading the regs myself and taking what was posted at face value.

I do like that it levels the playing field of anyone wanting to hunt the muzzleloader season, otherwise the old matchlock is at a real disadvantage!

 

[sabotloader]

Yes, there is...

View attachment 14441

For those that want to read the law: https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2021/billpdf/HB0242.pdf

MTScott - I'm in Helena. Sent you a PM. Thx

I see some wording that might be confusing...

1. Insertion of a cap or primer into an open breech... so to me this would make 209 primers legal?

2. is capable of being loaded from the breech.... Should this really be muzzle?

3. mounted with an optical magnification device.... so scopes are legal?

I am not really grasping this wording very well.

 

[Bushfire]

View attachment 14442

I see some wording that might be confusing...

1. Insertion of a cap or primer into an open breech... so to me this would make 209 primers legal?

2. is capable of being loaded from the breech.... Should this really be muzzle?

3. mounted with an optical magnification device.... so scopes are legal?

I am not really grasping this wording very well.

They are all under the "you cannot use the following" part of the bill. Check out the link.

If you read it this way it makes sense.

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

These are all you'll need! Been taking deer for a long time, and they work!

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

If you feel you need and INLINE......try one of these!

 

[Idaholewis]

If you feel you need and INLINE......try one of these!

HEY! That rifle that looks familiar!