Help choosing a rifle for Montana weapons restrictions

[GM54-120]

The Buckstalker can be had with a scope for $199 or less during fall sales.

The Traditions Pursuit is the direct competitor of the Optima.

I guess i could have said the Wolf and its available in SS. Traditions has not offered anything in SS in years. The Wolf as far as i know also has a metal trigger guard and other parts. Im pretty sure the Pursuit uses plastic on several parts of the assembly.

Traditions hypes the cerakote but it does nothing to protect the bore. How they can even make this statement is rather comical. Are people really that worried about black powder corrosion on the OUTSIDE of the barrel? Last i heard the cerakote is not covered under warranty. Ive seen numerous posts over the years from people that got nowhere with the CS about external rust were the cerakote flaked off.

The barrel and reciever is coated in Premium CeraKote Finish which is 50 times more corrosion-resistant than stainless steel in protecting against black powder, cleaning chemicals, and any weather you may encounter.

The receiver is an aluminum alloy and should not be rusting anyway right? So like i said i just cant see how anything Traditions offers is a better bang for the buck vs a comparable or 1 step up CVA model. I will take a SS inline for shooting corrosive powders every single time vs CM covered in Cerakote.

$219 in SS, what am i missing here vs a $249 Bulkstalker?
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/brands/cva-wolftm-northwest-legal.html

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I guess i could have said the Wolf and its available in SS. Traditions has not offered anything in SS in years. The Wolf as far as i know also has a metal trigger guard and other parts. Im pretty sure the Pursuit uses plastic on several parts of the assembly.

Traditions hypes the cerakote but it does nothing to protect the bore. How they can even make this statement is rather comical. Are people really that worried about black powder corrosion on the OUTSIDE of the barrel? Last i heard the cerakote is not covered under warranty. Ive seen numerous posts over the years from people that got nowhere with the CS about external rust were the cerakote flaked off.


The receiver is an aluminum alloy and should not be rusting anyway right? So like i said i just cant see how anything Traditions offers is a better bang for the buck vs a comparable or 1 step up CVA model. I will take a SS inline for shooting corrosive powders every single time vs CM covered in Cerakote.

$219 in SS, what am i missing here vs a $249 Bulkstalker?
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/brands/cva-wolftm-northwest-legal.html

Thanks for the correction. I have to agree.

You are most certainly correct about SS vs. Chrome Moly.

However, both do corrode if not properly cleaned. I have several tomato stakes that were SS muzzleloader barrels at one time.

.

 

[GM54-120]

They both will rust for sure especially with powders like Pyrodex. I could live with some of the negatives i mentioned if they just offered SS. 4140 may have a slight strength advantage vs 416 SS but they dont state its 4140. They just say chromoly but if you want to claim strength why not come out and say its 4140, Lothar's LW19 or whatever?. Knight for example claims the Vision barrel is made from 4140 so the only thing i can assume is its not and no one has offered up any proof that it is.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

I think something was overlooked. There are restrictions against breechloadin, paper cartridges and metallic cartridges.
Back in the day there were quite a few rifles that were breechloaded BUT used percussion caps for ignition. The Sharps, Maynard, Ballard, Smith and Burnside, to name a few. Let's not forget the Colt revolving rifle. They are percussion rifles that just happen to also be breechloaders.
Just a thought...

 

[MTScott]

I'm just getting back to this thread.... I never did buy a gun, and when I did get back to looking at one, everything I wanted was out of stock. Not all bad though, as I understand more.

Eventually, Iwill have two guns:

A modern inline for weapons restriction areas.
My sights are set on the CVA optima V2 long range. There is still a question mark (to me) on whether or not I should use 209 primers, or percussion caps. A couple folks here have indicated that 209 primers are acceptable, which I would prefer. The regs still state "percussion ignition", but do not specify primers. These are one of those items that could be left up to interpretation in court. I suppose it could be argued that both primers and perc caps are essentially "percussion ignition", just in a different package.

One thing that is more clear in the regs now is on bullets. The still must be "plain lead projectiles", but they do state that "gas checks are acceptable", sabots of course, are not. I'm not sure if there is a suitable "plain lead" bullet with a built in gas check or not.... I had kind of settled on using great plains conicals, or a maxi ball, or mini... or whatever.


A traditional sidelock percussion rifle for the December heritage season
I drug my feet debating on the a perfect gun for this. I had it in my head I wanted something which had a twist rate ideal for conicals, but i'm not sure now. I continued to drag my feet, and wondered if this was really something I'd get use out of and never got one. When rifle season ended here, and I still hadn't filled my deer B tag, I really wished I had ordered one. A that point, I had a week before the heritage season would start, but no gun, and almost everything was out of stock. I did find one investarm bridger model, double set triggers, bla bla bla, 1:48 twist, seemed like a nice rilfe for a little under 600. I probably could have had that shipped here in time, but getting powder, bullets, caps, etc... was proving more difficult - then there is that whole learning how to shoot it thing, finding the right bullet/patch/grain combo, with only a 1 week season. So I calmed down, and decided to wait. When stock gets back up, I'll probably just try to find a simple standard hawken style gun that is cost effective, and see how I like it. I'm liking the idea of the traditions deer hunter at only 299. Light, synthetic stock, cheap.... good way to start maybe. If I really like it, maybe I'll go for something fancier.

The heritage season regs are targeted pretty specific - it seems purely focused on the enthusiast. They also specifically state "rifle", which rules out the option to use a sidelock pistol, if you're interpreting it legally. A pistol would be nice to have for a quick backup shot.

 

[MTScott]

I think something was overlooked. There are restrictions against breechloadin, paper cartridges and metallic cartridges.
Back in the day there were quite a few rifles that were breechloaded BUT used percussion caps for ignition. The Sharps, Maynard, Ballard, Smith and Burnside, to name a few. Let's not forget the Colt revolving rifle. They are percussion rifles that just happen to also be breechloaders.
Just a thought...

Yes, for a "heritage" season, they seem to be written with a pretty narrow focus. It would be nice to be able to carry the .44 colt revolver pistol for finish shots if needed. It would also give me an excuse to buy one .

 

[GM54-120]

Yes the Heritage season as its currently written would prohibit inlines. Seems silly to me given the normal PACNW restrictions already in place. As if somehow magically a sidelock cant be as accurate as an inline with the current restrictions.

 

[rangerod]

I'd go the NIGHTWOLF way. Considering the restrictive regs an inline no advantage over the percussion cap sidelock. I like the Lyman Deerstalker in .50 cal.

 

[JBushnell]

Your concern of whether you'll hunt the Heritage season is valid. I will first state that I'm foremost a meat hunter, but I geared up for the Heritage season for two reasons, first for the opportunity to return to my first method of hunting, and second for the additional opportunity it provides. As my season turned out, between hunting in Montana and the family farm in Illinois I put five whitetail deer in the freezer (which is enough to fill my freezer) and so never made it out during our first-ever Heritage season.

 

[ILoveMuzzleloading]

Yes the Heritage season as its currently written would prohibit inlines. Seems silly to me given the normal PACNW restrictions already in place. As if somehow magically a sidelock cant be as accurate as an inline with the current restrictions.

While I agree, the sidelock doesn’t make it any less accurate, I spoke to the representative behind the law last spring when it was introduced. Bringing a Muzzleloader Only Hunting Season to Montana - Caleb Hinkle (UPDATED) — The NMLRA

He’s a young man passionate about history, and wanted to get the season going to be akin to the PA flintlock season, a way for us to connect with our forefathers. He’s a fine young man, I think we’d do well to have more politicians like him- at least in this regard.

 

[rfd]

Love it (NOT!) when politicos write laws about subjects they know little to nothing about. Happens too often with weapons for hunting, and even then they do dumb things like lump "archery" seasons with crossbows or/and muzzleloaders (where these weapons are usually all poorly defined). You'd think they'd be smart enuf to hold a caucus with actual hunters and get their input, but that would waste too much of their precious time needed for gathering votes for their next election since most are professional politicians. Not to mention the industry kickbacks from lobbyists.

My strong recommendation is to go back to yer roots, to OUR American roots, and get thee a true trad sidelock in flint or cap. There are lotsa good choices and all will be more than capable of taking medium to large game. You will learn a lot in the process and come to be quite proficient with yer new rifle. As to what projectile, keep it simple - a patched ball. As to the powder - black ... this is mandatory for flinters but the black sub crap will work for the cap guns. Flinters are not to be dismissed for inclement weather hunting and may prove to be as worthy, if not more worthy than the cap gun types.

With regards to the above, there is much to learn, much to sort out, and I am more than wiling to mentor anyone entering into this kinda firearm genre. Life ain't worth living unless you learn and learning how to shoot and maintain a trad sidelock is a most worthy endeavor that will instill both pride and accomplishment.

PS - Nothing could be easier to well maintain than a coal burner sidelock.

A few cheap but worthy 50 cal sidelocks ...





The ubiquitous king of 18th century rock locks, the 62 cal smoothbore; kill anything in Norte-America ...

 

[Squint]

Howdy folks, new member here.

So I've wanted to get a muzzle loader for some time now, but haven't quite had enough excuse, other than... it's cool and who doesn't need one more gun.

That said muzzle load rifles have a place in Montana weapons restricted hunting areas, which is excuse enough for me. They can be used along with crossbow, pistols, shotgun slug. bow, etc...

I'd prefer a "modern" muzzle load rifle, but these rules seem a bit archaic, maybe pushing folks to use OLD musket style benjamin martin red coat slayer guns.; however, I really know nothing at this point, which is why I'm here.

I'm going to paste in the rules here from the Montana regulations, and hope some of the experts can point me to the proper gun, bullets, powder, etc...

• Must not be capable of being loaded from the breech of the barrel;
• May not be loaded with any preprepared paper or metallic cartridges;
• must be charged with black powder, pyrodex, or an equivalent;
• Must be ignited by a percussion, flintlock, matchlock, or wheelock mechanism;
• Must be a minimum of .45 caliber;
• May have no more than two barrels;
• Must only use plain lead projectiles;
• Sabots or other similar power and range-enhancing manufactured loads that enclose the projectile from the rifling or bore of the firearm are prohibited. “Skirts” or gas checks on the base of a projectile are acceptable.

I assume that for "plain lead projectiles", this would meet that rule: Hornady Great Plains Muzzleloading Bullets 50 Cal 385 Grain Lead

Do the restrictions on ignition types apply to any modern muzzle load rifles?

Thanks,
Scott

I know I'm a little late for this thread, but there is a good reason for some of the regulations on the muzzleloader season in Montana. Where muzzleloaders are allowed to be used for certain areas, archery is also used, and a Patched round ball does not travel near as decently as heavy wind shaped bullets. Those restrictions I believe are also in effect on the heritage season. Pennsylvania did had the right idea when they made the muzzleloader season strictly a flintlock season. Whether or not they do that now I do not know, but I'm glad to see Montana sticking to a primitive weapon type season. My only problem with it, was that it was way too late in the year and I am attempting to get it at an earlier date. The primitive weapons allowed are not easy to use an extreme cold conditions, nothing like an in-line. Those of us that wish to hunt with such primitive firearms do so for the additional personal restrictions that it places on one. If you want more game, buy the multiple doe tags, a good reasonable cartridge rifle and go tag deer. If you rather have an interesting hunt try primitive.
Squint

 

[GM54-120]

The regs in Montana and Pennsylvania say nothing about PRB only. Conicals are plenty lethal well past 200 yards and Penn allows sabots in the flintlock season.

How is a PACNW restricted inline better/easier/whatever in a cold climate than a percussion sidelock?

The only difference i see is the cost needed to get into a fast twist sidelock. Since 45cal is legal and Rice offers drop-in for for more than a "western version" of an Optima. Tell me what do you think has the potential of being more accurate at 300 yards.....A $260 PACNW legal Optima or a custom Rice 45 1-20 barrel in a Hawkens type rifle? Seems like all these regs really do is cost someone more to hunt just so you "look traditional".

 

[rfd]

I know I'm a little late for this thread, but there is a good reason for some of the regulations on the muzzleloader season in Montana. Where muzzleloaders are allowed to be used for certain areas, archery is also used, and a Patched round ball does not travel near as decently as heavy wind shaped bullets. Those restrictions I believe are also in effect on the heritage season. Pennsylvania did had the right idea when they made the muzzleloader season strictly a flintlock season. Whether or not they do that now I do not know, but I'm glad to see Montana sticking to a primitive weapon type season. My only problem with it, was that it was way too late in the year and I am attempting to get it at an earlier date. The primitive weapons allowed are not easy to use an extreme cold conditions, nothing like an in-line. Those of us that wish to hunt with such primitive firearms do so for the additional personal restrictions that it places on one. If you want more game, buy the multiple doe tags, a good reasonable cartridge rifle and go tag deer. If you rather have an interesting hunt try primitive.
Squint

Well said.

Putting a hand held, hand operated (drawn and released) archery bow in the same hunt arena as any form of rifle (yes, that includes those crossbows and crossbow-guns) makes zero sense. This hasta do mainly with target distance efficacy, thus there will be radically different hunt processes. I know of two trad bowhunters who were shot during a "primitive season", fortunately both lived.

It makes perfect sense that a "primitive firearm" season be just that, and restricted to trad muzzleloaders utilizing trad ignition systems (match, wheel, flint, cap). As to the projectile(s) used, as long as they fit the era and weapon they should be allowed - thus, a naked ball or patched ball. Conicals and their ilk are not "primitive firearm" and are the precursors to cartridge era.

 

[rfd]

What Lewis and others are doing with trad sidelocks takes these guns and brings them into the 21st century and thus are just as effective - if not more so - than most any typical centerfire hunting rifle. That ain't sport, that ain't "primitive".

 

[GM54-120]

Fast twist 45 sidelocks have been around for over 150 years. Who decides when to draw the traditional "time line"? What next ban a 58cal PRB because it has more energy at 150yards than a 45cal PRB does?

 

[michiganmuzzy]

How long does it take to start a "tradition'? Also, how many people have to do a thing, to make it traditional?

 

[GM54-120]

Depends who you ask. In some ML events, rifles like this are "traditional" but also quite costly to own. Sure is a perty rifle but still a tad heavy. It would be completely legal to use during the Heritage season.
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/gibbs-short-range-rifle

 

[Squint]

How long does it take to start a "tradition'? Also, how many people have to do a thing, to make it traditional?

As how I'm kind in the middle of this discussion now, the cut off point for the firearms was the onset of any breach loaded weapon. Now I am aware there was a breach loading primitive but it was very unsuccessful as it soon gummed up and wouldn't work, And for all I know you could get permission to use one of those and has to screw in, from the top, breach. I really wouldn't have minded if they would've made it Flintlock only, but to me that made it so narrow for those that have one, that it wouldn't be a successful Special season. Those Refuges areas, that right now that are allowing the use of muzzleloaders along with archery, are all quite small and being they are with a regular- general season, you must wear hunters orange. I myself, would not care to archery hunt there at the same time as the muzzleloader hunters, but these areas are open early for archery only, no crossbows. It's only during general season that the all three can be together. Now if you find this more confusing yet, join the club as it is imperative that you get a new regulation schedule every year and read the fine print.
One thing to remember, just where this is located at. There are three muzzleloader hunters in my hometown and I'm the only one who shoots flintlock and percussion. The gun club I belong to, 45 miles away, has about a dozen primitive weapon shooters. Two of us have flintlock's so the numbers that Shoot flintlock, are pretty scarce. The next rifle club that, has some primitive shooters and even put on a primitive shooting event, is 120 miles the opposite direction.
Squint

 

[michiganmuzzy]

"Tradition" and "traditional" are pretty vague ways to describe anything. They are very subjective ideas and can be used for almost anything. Considering current attention spans an Apple iphone could be considered a "traditional" cell phone. A lever action rifle has been around seemingly forever by comparison and some might call it traditional. Compare any muzzleloader to a bow, and how long those have been used, and it would barely seem to be a tradition.
p.s. im just being a devils advocate here. i dont truly have an opinion about traditional hunting seasons.