Help me choose a flintlock....

[valkyrierdr]

When it comes to traditional muzzleloaders, I only have and shoot flintlocks. Yes, I've had a gaggle of cap guns, they're just not my style and I prefer the guns of the 18th century ... 19th century guns for me are Sharps and Rollers. I've been building, maintaining, fixing, and shooter flinters since the late 50s (1950s, that is, not 1750s )

Unlike percussion locks, flint locks are far more quality dependent - for the very most part, you will get in return what you paid. Flint locks can, and should be, "tuned". Not a chore and easy for good locks, but a bear for not-so-good locks.

There are essentially two kinds of trad muzzleloader chambers - "patent" breech and flat faced breech. Almost all the offshore built guns, from T/C to Lyman to Pedersoli to Traditions to Investarms to etc etc etc, will have that patent breech, which is actually two chambers - the main chamber where the powder and patched ball live, and an ante-chamber that's before the main chamber.

If a gun is .50 bore, the ante-chamber will typically be a .30 something bore ...

Here's where it gets "interesting" ... the ante-chamber is a smaller diameter than the main chamber. It's like a flue and its design is to speed up ignition. Does it do that? Personally, I've never seen that to be true, but I do know that patent breech anti-chambers WILL REQUIRE attention for fouling control, sometimes after every shot. That means putting a brush on the end of yer ramrod and draping a patch over it in order to get down into that ante-chamber and clean it out of BP residue.

Yes, BP - black powder - you don't wanna use BP sub with flintlocks because that stuff is near useless for pan ignition (as the flint scrapes hot metal off the hammer steel to ignite what stuff ya stuck in the pan so that the stuff's heat will enter the touch hole and ignite the chamber powder).

I recommend onshore built flintlock rifles and smoothbores that feature classic flat faced breech plugs. Yes, not cheap. You will get in return what you paid for a Good Flintlock rifle/smoothbore. Good luck.

I built a Kibler Colonial flintlock in .54 caliber and the kit was just Excellent. I highly recommend Kibler kits. You will need some tooling and some crafting smarts, it ain't nothing like those offshore "kits" that are just plug 'n' play with a screwdriver.

That is absolutely one beautiful rifle. I am a dyed in the wool flinter also and I love the style you made. I like the wide butt Germanic styled rifles. That piece of wood was about as good as it gets. I also like the larger early locks. I thought I had some pretty guns but nothing like that. congrats. I hope you have many years of enjoyment with her.

 

[rfd]

That is absolutely one beautiful rifle. I am a dyed in the wool flinter also and I love the style you made. I like the wide butt Germanic styled rifles. That piece of wood was about as good as it gets. I also like the larger early locks. I thought I had some pretty guns but nothing like that. congrats. I hope you have many years of enjoyment with her.

Thanx for yer kind words. I sold that Colonial some months after its build. Nothing at all wrong with the gun, it was just wrong for me for several reasons - it was over 9lbs heavy and to be honest I don't like fancy wood guns; I built that gun with eventually selling it in mind and nothing sells faster than lotsa wood bling

My idea of an 18th century firearm is what totally dominated all guns of that period - a smoothbore, and in particular a "trade" gun, which is what I shoot now. A feller in Cali sorta put it together but his strength was in carving and not actual gun building. I kinda fixed and rebuilt what he started. A fine .62 smoothbore that's purty accurate at reasonable distances.

 

[valkyrierdr]

I like the smooth bores also. I have an American style built by Ken Netting of Columbus , Oh. and a Fusil De Chasse. both in 20 bore. They both shoot great and are a joy to carry.

 

[exarcher]

While I'm not a flintlock guy, I have been shooting cap locks since the 70's.
I've had fast twist, slow twist barrels, some in between.
Somehow I just don't see a fast twist flintlock rifle.
A patched round ball is the only projectile I can envision for a flinter.

There is something about this ML twist stuff i do not understand...Any twist formula i can plug a bullet into gives optimal twist much slower than imagined.. for instance the 535 grain bullet i've been shooting out of my renegade gives optimal twist up in the 50's,,, so the 48 on it should be excellent.. (shoots ok but i'm having some rifle problems not bullet barrel twist probs)... Does anyone have a twist formula that optimizes stability for the slower velocity of black powder guns??
By the way there is a left hand lyman flint 50 cal on gunbroker right now which have 48 twist & should do quite well with most common weight bullets??? Also how do the T/C flintlocks measure up??? I will have to have a flint rifle before too long... (watched a lot of Daniel Boone, and Davey Crockett shows as a child) but wanted to get a good deer thumper sidelock going first..

+

 

[deermanok]

You should check the for sale section on the sister site;
muzzleloadingforum.com
A guy over there has a beautiful Tennessee mountain rifle for sale.
Left handed flintlock.
I think it's from Dixie gun works?
Asking around $ 700.00. I think?

 

[valkyrierdr]

Fast twist is more for conical bullet . 1 in 48 that is in Thompsons usually shoot both well out of the short barrel. In long barrel rifles shooting round ball only the slow twist works better. If you want to really enjoy your flintlock , don't buy a factory made gun. Get a rifle with a quality lock from a top maker. Factory locks are made to fit a gun that was designed for a caplock and the throw of the hammer is usually too short to get proper ignition. Custom rifles have a proper lock that was designed for a flint lock. The hammer has the proper length to scrape the frizzen and give good spark. The others hit the frizzen too straight on and throws poor spark and flints break after a few shots.

 

[eekjellander]

There is something about this ML twist stuff i do not understand...Any twist formula i can plug a bullet into gives optimal twist much slower than imagined.. for instance the 535 grain bullet i've been shooting out of my renegade gives optimal twist up in the 50's,,, so the 48 on it should be excellent.. (shoots ok but i'm having some rifle problems not bullet barrel twist probs)... Does anyone have a twist formula that optimizes stability for the slower velocity of black powder guns??
By the way there is a left hand lyman flint 50 cal on gunbroker right now which have 48 twist & should do quite well with most common weight bullets??? Also how do the T/C flintlocks measure up??? I will have to have a flint rifle before too long... (watched a lot of Daniel Boone, and Davey Crockett shows as a child) but wanted to get a good deer thumper sidelock going first..

+

Check you calculations ,it"s backward ,anything I shoot long , paper patched /or greaser is heavy 500+ and 1-18 twist in my TC Renegade 45 cal or the new Rice 17 twist is anything but slow .I think you have found your problem . You might see some of IdahoLewis video's what"s left of them shooting long ,he seems to make any twist work but the fast twist is what prevails in target or buffalo/dragon slaying/Ed

 

[exarcher]

Check you calculations ,it"s backward ,anything I shoot long , paper patched /or greaser is heavy 500+ and 1-18 twist in my TC Renegade 45 cal or the new Rice 17 twist is anything but slow .I think you have found your problem . You might see some of IdahoLewis video's what"s left of them shooting long ,he seems to make any twist work but the fast twist is what prevails in target or buffalo/dragon slaying/Ed

I used a twist calculator program..
i know the fast twist works,, but find a "twist suggestion" formula that suggests the twists you are using,,, I haven't been able to.. The point is mute however as it's easy to see the fast (fast for muzzleloaders) is whats needed.. I think the formula's used for centerfire bullets may not work on ML bullets because of the slow velocity's.. That one i was talking about did give "low velocity" warning when i used it.. (twist for 535grain bullet should be in high 50's is result of this formula so my 48 twist should be great not just ok. i've read of much better grouping with these bullets & always with the barrels 24-28 twist & your using even faster. I'm sure the spin rate must be increased when running lower than 2000fps,,, at least thats what is happening on the targets... 2800 fps is slow on target rifles..(benchrest) ..., for instance 14 twist is optimal for 6mm, 65 grain bullet. In reality its not the bullet weight but jacket length that determines needed twist.. on these bullets (but you can only make a small range of weight bullets on particular jacket length. (ie 62 to 70grain on .825 jacket) I'm quite sure the formulas were designed & tested on relatively high velocity jacketed bullets. Sorry for the rambling,,,,

Does anybody know of a twist formula for Cast bullets?? (esp45, 50-54 cal).. rambling again: (17 is slow twist in a 22 bullet (gr8 for rimfire 40 grain or so bullet), twist drops down to 8 or 7 with the new heavy for caliber long range .223 bullets (80-90grain) I'm sure the Lyman ballistic engineers from years ago had something.

 

[eekjellander]

I used a twist calculator program..
i know the fast twist works,, but find a "twist suggestion" formula that suggests the twists you are using,,, I haven't been able to.. The point is mute however as it's easy to see the fast (fast for muzzleloaders) is whats needed.. I think the formula's used for centerfire bullets may not work on ML bullets because of the slow velocity's.. That one i was talking about did give "low velocity" warning when i used it.. (twist for 535grain bullet should be in high 50's is result of this formula so my 48 twist should be great not just ok. i've read of much better grouping with these bullets & always with the barrels 24-28 twist & your using even faster. I'm sure the spin rate must be increased when running lower than 2000fps,,, at least thats what is happening on the targets... 2800 fps is slow on target rifles..(benchrest) ..., for instance 14 twist is optimal for 6mm, 65 grain bullet. In reality its not the bullet weight but jacket length that determines needed twist.. on these bullets (but you can only make a small range of weight bullets on particular jacket length. (ie 62 to 70grain on .825 jacket) I'm quite sure the formulas were designed & tested on relatively high velocity jacketed bullets. Sorry for the rambling,,,,

Does anybody know of a twist formula for Cast bullets?? (esp45, 50-54 cal).. rambling again: (17 is slow twist in a 22 bullet (gr8 for rimfire 40 grain or so bullet), twist drops down to 8 or 7 with the new heavy for caliber long range .223 bullets (80-90grain) I'm sure the Lyman ballistic engineers from years ago had something.

I know for sure your answer lies not in a formula but in the barrel makers /and long range winners ! Jason @ Rice barrels /Bob Hoyt / Lee Shaver/ and Dave Gallo@ BACO (buffalo arms owner) ,There I solved your problem with great referrals/Ed

 

[exarcher]

I know for sure your answer lies not in a formula but in the barrel makers /and long range winners ! Jason @ Rice barrels /Bob Hoyt / Lee Shaver/ and Dave Gallo@ BACO (buffalo arms owner) ,There I solved your problem with great referrals/Ed
[/QUOT
the formula would be just for fun.. thanks for the referrals any way... if somebody was building a fast twist 54 for T/C renegade, i would have already had it on the way or at least ordered.. but since not, i have a new 50 hawken with laminated stock coming,, won't have to worry about cracking like on my 54, (which i'll probably get relined with a fast twist though i think it will end up 50 cal also, unless a 54 fast twist liner is available )

 

[eekjellander]

Bob can make it in any twist you want

 

[Matthew323]

Your issues might possibly not be in the rate of twist; but in the lube; the viscosity/thickness of the applied lube; whether, or not you are using a wad underneath the bullet before you seat it; the material that the wad is constructed from; whether the wad is lubed, or not; and finally, the depth of the grooves in the rifling of the barrel in question.

Thompson/Center's groove depth for every sidelock barrel they produced, EXCEPT the ROUND BALL TWIST barrels (which are so marked); was 0.005" deep. A lot of the imported sidelocks have groove depths that are even deeper than Thompson/Center. I've seen groove depths from Italy & Spain in relatively fast twist barrels being advertised for conicals (1-30", 1-28", 1-24"), that had groove depths measuring 0.006", 0.007", & 0.008".

For lubed lead conicals, 0.005" is considered 0.001" too deep by barrel makers. It's generally agreed in the muzzleloading industry that a groove depth of 0.0035"-0.004" is ideal.

For patched balls, 0.005" is considered too shallow by barrel makers.

Experienced shooters will shoot an English Sporting Rifle equipped with a large bore (.58 caliber & larger) Forsyth rifled barrel that has 0.006" deep grooves that average at LEAST 4-5 times wider than the lands. These barrels have thick breeches, are usually equipped with a patent flint/percussion breech plug that has an anti-chamber, and the rates of twist start at 1:72" (considered fast), and go as slow as 1:144". A Forsyth barrel is designed to allow a patched ball, cast of pure lead (or an alloy as hard as Linotype), usually with a TIGHT linen patch, to be shot out to distances as far as 200 yards, utilizing massive powder charges from 150-200 grains.

This is the only type of muzzleloading barrel that most barrel makers rifle that has shallow groove rifling.

The deeper the grooves are in a barrel the harder it is going to be to effect a good seal between the bullet and the barrel when ignition takes place, the bullet starts to move forward in the bore, and the forces behind the bullet upset it, or as the scientists say, the bullet begins to obdurate to fill the grooves.

This obduration can occur even in patched ball twist barrels with groove depths measuring as deep as 0.016".

Colerain's gain twist barrels with a 1:36" finishing rate of twist at the muzzle, have the ability to shoot short for caliber lead conicals out of their 0.016" deep grooves. Provided a wool wad one caliber larger than the bore is used under the conical.

 

[exarcher]

Get a kit by Kibler , 90% finished when you get it.

does kibler do left handed versions?? just curious

 

[exarcher]

When it comes to traditional muzzleloaders, I only have and shoot flintlocks. Yes, I've had a gaggle of cap guns, they're just not my style and I prefer the guns of the 18th century ... 19th century guns for me are Sharps and Rollers. I've been building, maintaining, fixing, and shooter flinters since the late 50s (1950s, that is, not 1750s )

Unlike percussion locks, flint locks are far more quality dependent - for the very most part, you will get in return what you paid. Flint locks can, and should be, "tuned". Not a chore and easy for good locks, but a bear for not-so-good locks.

There are essentially two kinds of trad muzzleloader chambers - "patent" breech and flat faced breech. Almost all the offshore built guns, from T/C to Lyman to Pedersoli to Traditions to Investarms to etc etc etc, will have that patent breech, which is actually two chambers - the main chamber where the powder and patched ball live, and an ante-chamber that's before the main chamber.

If a gun is .50 bore, the ante-chamber will typically be a .30 something bore ...

Here's where it gets "interesting" ... the ante-chamber is a smaller diameter than the main chamber. It's like a flue and its design is to speed up ignition. Does it do that? Personally, I've never seen that to be true, but I do know that patent breech anti-chambers WILL REQUIRE attention for fouling control, sometimes after every shot. That means putting a brush on the end of yer ramrod and draping a patch over it in order to get down into that ante-chamber and clean it out of BP residue.

Yes, BP - black powder - you don't wanna use BP sub with flintlocks because that stuff is near useless for pan ignition (as the flint scrapes hot metal off the hammer steel to ignite what stuff ya stuck in the pan so that the stuff's heat will enter the touch hole and ignite the chamber powder).

I recommend onshore built flintlock rifles and smoothbores that feature classic flat faced breech plugs. Yes, not cheap. You will get in return what you paid for a Good Flintlock rifle/smoothbore. Good luck.

I built a Kibler Colonial flintlock in .54 caliber and the kit was just Excellent. I highly recommend Kibler kits. You will need some tooling and some crafting smarts, it ain't nothing like those offshore "kits" that are just plug 'n' play with a screwdriver.

beautiful rifle!! love figured wood!!

 

[rfd]

beautiful rifle!! love figured wood!!

Thank you, but really the credit goes to Jim's wood selection, his aqua fortis stain, and good ol' TruOil for the rubbed in clear coats.

Kibler SMR just finished, .45 bore, waiting for the weather to change for its baptism.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Fast twist flintlocks are nothing new really.
Look up Capandball on YouTube and the vintage flintlock jaegers he shoots are interesting. Big bores and fast twists. Around 1-20 to 30 irrc.
Projectiles are important of course. I shoot sabot ( the other sub caliber adapter)loads in my flintlock Renegades with great success. The 250 grain .45 XTP is the longest that will stabilize in a 1-48 twist according to Greenhill's formula. My percussion Hawken, aperture sighted and a 1-48 twist, will put 3 rounds in 4 inches at 200 yards. Sometimes ( much) less. Zeroed at 100 yards, velocity 1610 fps chrono'd, the drop at 200 is 22 inches.
I'll be trying conicals soon.
And ball.
I hate ball...

 

[Bushfire]

Fast twist flintlocks are nothing new really.
Look up Capandball on YouTube and the vintage flintlock jaegers he shoots are interesting. Big bores and fast twists. Around 1-20 to 30 irrc.
Projectiles are important of course. I shoot sabot ( the other sub caliber adapter)loads in my flintlock Renegades with great success. The 250 grain .45 XTP is the longest that will stabilize in a 1-48 twist according to Greenhill's formula. My percussion Hawken, aperture sighted and a 1-48 twist, will put 3 rounds in 4 inches at 200 yards. Sometimes ( much) less. Zeroed at 100 yards, velocity 1610 fps chrono'd, the drop at 200 is 22 inches.
I'll be trying conicals soon.
And ball.
I hate ball...

Original jaegers did have a relative fast twist but they were very deep grooves and designed for balls.

No need to fear the ball, they can be very accurate and kill as well as modern projectiles when used within their range.

 

[eekjellander]

Original jaegers did have a relative fast twist but they were very deep grooves and designed for balls.

No need to fear the ball, they can be very accurate and kill as well as modern projectiles when used within their range.

The limited range is why there are conicals , for those times ya can't find yer balls and want to reach out and smack something !/Ed

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Yup. Designed for ball. But still, mighty quick. Just mentioned it to show that fast twist flinters aren't new and have a place today.

 

[Bushfire]

The limited range is why there are conicals , for those times ya can't find yer balls and want to reach out and smack something !/Ed

Because I hunt with open sights, fortunately the range limit of a round ball is further than my shooting ability. If I’m worried about shooting further I just take a centrefire.