Help Needed - Renegade Hunter (Single Trigger) work.

[WP79Vet]

A couple of weeks ago I bought an unfired, in-the-box Renegade Hunter on GunBroker. While I'm sure that it was unfired, the trigger was a bit odd - extremely creepy but VERY light - to the point that I have to be careful not to set the rifle off by just touching the trigger. After reading everything I can find on here and Idaho Lewis' new forum, I took out the lock to have a look. First issue is that all the surfaces were very rough, which was causing lots of perceptible friction while cocking. In addition, the tumbler had a big burr on one corner (not anywhere near the half-cock or full cock notches) that was actually engraving a groove on the lock plate. Finally, the surface of the cocking notch which the sear engages was fairly rough and had some grooves in it. The burr on the tumbler, the marks on the cocking notch engagement surface, and the extremely light trigger pull have me guessing that although the rifle did appear to be unfired, as advertised, somebody tried to lighten the trigger by filing on the engagement surface, messed it up, dropped the tumbler on a hard surface which created the burr, and then decided to just sell the rifle.

First order of business, then, was getting rid of the burr and polishing all surfaces that rub against other surfaces. After a couple of iterations, cocking is much smoother, I suspect that lock time is much faster due to friction reduction, and the creep was smoother but still there. I carefully polished the engagement surfaces of the cocking notch and the sear as well. No improvement in the trigger pull.

Next order of business was to shorten the cocking notch "tip," following the procedure that Idaholewis posted here: TC single trigger “Trigger Job”
I carefully filed down the tip from .572" (which seems to be the factory dimension) to .562, taking great care to go slowly, test a lot, and keep the surface from which I was removing metal squared up. The creep is almost completely gone now, but the trigger pull remains way too light, especially for a hunting rifle which will be used with gloves in very cold weather.

At this point, then, it seems that I have to tackle changing the angle of the engagement surface of the cocking notch. As-is, the angle between the engagement surface of the full-cock notch and the flat part of the tumbler just behind it appears to be almost exactly 90 degrees, as closely as I can gage it with the square end of a precision steel ruler. Has anybody tried to INCREASE the trigger pull of a TC New Englander, Renegade, or Hawken? Does anybody know what the factory angle is? I did some precision machining and a fair amount of ultra-high precision mechanical design some years ago, and have a few ideas of how to go about changing the engagement surface angle by very small amounts in a controlled way, but any advice or references that anybody can provide before I tackle this will be GREATLY appreciated! New tumblers for TC trad muzzleloaders seem to be very scarce these days.....

 

[Bert621]

Do you think they may have changed out the mainspring?

 

[WP79Vet]

Do you think they may have changed out the mainspring?

I don't have any evidence one way or the other. The mainspring feels pretty stout, but this is the only vintage TC I've ever taken apart, so I have no basis for comparison.

Now that you mention it, it does seem that a weak mainspring could cause a light trigger pull. Thanks for the thought. Is there an easy way to check the spring constant of the mainspring?

 

[deermanok]

Is there a very small screw in a spring on the tumbler?
That's called the fly. You can try adjusting it by turning it in or out. In this case, I would suggest trying to tighten it up maybe a full turn or two.

 

[WP79Vet]

Is there a very small screw in a spring on the tumbler?
That's called the fly. You can try adjusting it by turning it in or out. In this case, I would suggest trying to tighten it up maybe a full turn or two.

The fly on this lock doesn't have a spring - it just sits in a hole on the tumbler.

 

[deermanok]

The fly on this lock doesn't have a spring - it just sits in a hole on the tumbler.

Most of my experience is with CVA, Traditions locks. They all have a spring on the fly.
Maybe TC doesn't or it's missing?
You can contact The Gun Works/Muzzleloading Emporium. Susie, the owner is quite knowledgeable and so are the other guys there.
They also stock a limited amount of TC parts.

 

[WP79Vet]

Most of my experience is with CVA, Traditions locks. They all have a spring on the fly.
Maybe TC doesn't or it's missing?
You can contact The Gun Works/Muzzleloading Emporium. Susie, the owner is quite knowledgeable and so are the other guys there.
They also stock a limited amount of TC parts.

Thanks for the reference, deerman! I don't see any way that there could be a spring connected with the fly on my TC lock, but maybe I'm wrong. And... it would be nice to talk to someone with a bit of gunsmithing experience related to my Renegade lock. I will give her a call and post what I find out.

 

[brad502a]

what about the sear return spring? it is located under a plunger at the rear of the lock. it is a fairly stout spring. someone might have cut it down

 

[WP79Vet]

what about the sear return spring? it is located under a plunger at the rear of the lock. it is a fairly stout spring. someone might have cut it down

The best approach may be to just replace critical lock parts - if I can find new ones which were manufactured by TC so that I have some assurance that they meet specifications. I got on The Gunworks Muzzleloading Emporium's site this morning, and they have most of the critical lock parts (fly, sear, mainspring and guide, sear spring and plunger) - but no right-hand tumblers. I will call them to ensure that these are new parts, and then maybe order a set. Does anybody know whether the two-trigger Renegades and the one-trigger Renegades (what I have) have the same tumbler? I haven't seen any references which make me think that the tumblers are different.

 

[brad502a]

The tumblers are the same.

 

[brad502a]

I would check that plunger/spring assembly though. I have had them where the hole is burred up and not able to push down on the sear lever.

 

[WP79Vet]

I would check that plunger/spring assembly though. I have had them where the hole is burred up and not able to push down on the sear lever.

Thanks - the plunger/spring assembly seems to be working properly, but I will check it again.

I just spoke to Suzie (owner) at The Gunworks/Muzzleloading Emporium. She has a lock expert on staff, but he was not in when I called. She promised that he will give me a call tomorrow. I will post results of my conversation with him.

 

[idahoron]

I know this might sound stupid.
Was the trigger in the right location / indexed correctly when the lock is installed?
On mine, The trigger has a fork in it.
If the trigger isn't indexed correctly. The trigger will swing forward all the way to the trigger guard.

 

[WP79Vet]

Your question is a good one, Ron....if I'm understanding it, my trigger also has a fork in it that goes in with one tine above the sear lever and one tine below the sear lever. It takes a little doing to get it installed correctly when you put the trigger back in, and I suppose it could be pushed into position on the stock with the top tine of the fork pushing up on the sear lever, rather than one tine above the sear lever and one tine below the sear lever. I haven't tried putting it in wrong, but I'm guessing that doing so might push the trigger all the way forward to the trigger guard, and that's what you're referring to? My impression is that some TC triggers just pushed up on the sear lever, rather than having the fork which surrounds it?

In any event, everything seems to move and function normally, and nearly all of the creep is gone.... but the trigger is still just too light. I have a trigger pull gage on order, and after it arrives and I've had a chance to talk to the guy at The Gunworks, I will post anything I learn, and then dive in.

By nature I'm a dive-in-and-try-it kind of guy, probably to a fault. It usually works out, but there've been times when I've had that salty taste in my mouth about halfway through something like replacing every seal in a 20 year-old Buick, replacing the high pressure fuel system on a Ford 6.0 liter diesel, or completely rewiring and replumbing a house. Over the years I've learned that BEFORE diving in, it's best to read everything I can find online or elsewhere, and talk to everybody I can find who might know something about it. I deeply appreciate everybody who's chiming in with questions, references, and advice of all kinds! If this project comes out in the end, I will take the time to post a description of what I've done in hope that in might be helpful to somebody else.

 

[idahoron]

Your question is a good one, Ron....if I'm understanding it, my trigger also has a fork in it that goes in with one tine above the sear lever and one tine below the sear lever. It takes a little doing to get it installed correctly when you put the trigger back in, and I suppose it could be pushed into position on the stock with the top tine of the fork pushing up on the sear lever, rather than one tine above the sear lever and one tine below the sear lever. I haven't tried putting it in wrong, but I'm guessing that doing so might push the trigger all the way forward to the trigger guard, and that's what you're referring to? My impression is that some TC triggers just pushed up on the sear lever, rather than having the fork which surrounds it?

In any event, everything seems to move and function normally, and nearly all of the creep is gone.... but the trigger is still just too light. I have a trigger pull gage on order, and after it arrives and I've had a chance to talk to the guy at The Gunworks, I will post anything I learn, and then dive in.

By nature I'm a dive-in-and-try-it kind of guy, probably to a fault. It usually works out, but there've been times when I've had that salty taste in my mouth about halfway through something like replacing every seal in a 20 year-old Buick, replacing the high pressure fuel system on a Ford 6.0 liter diesel, or completely rewiring and replumbing a house. Over the years I've learned that BEFORE diving in, it's best to read everything I can find online or elsewhere, and talk to everybody I can find who might know something about it. I deeply appreciate everybody who's chiming in with questions, references, and advice of all kinds! If this project comes out in the end, I will take the time to post a description of what I've done in hope that in might be helpful to somebody else.

The Renegade two trigger and the Hawken trigger are set up differently.
I once got my lock installed on top of the fork.
Just thought I would mention it.

 

[WP79Vet]

The Renegade two trigger and the Hawken trigger are set up differently.
I once got my lock installed on top of the fork.
Just thought I wiuld mention it.

Thanks - always worth checking.

 

[Bad Karma]

I’d probably pick up a new tumbler and start over… they’re up o eBay pretty regularly.

 

[WP79Vet]

Got a call from David at The Gunworks/Muzzleloading Emporium today. Extremely knowlegeable and helpful individual. He asked me to check a few things on the rifle to ensure that something I haven't thought of is causing the light trigger problem.

First check was to go to full cock and just push on the hammer, and then tap it hard with my hand to see if it would release. No problems there - it didn't release, so the depth to which the sear engages the tumbler is OK. If the full cock notch tip had been filed down too far, the sear would have released.

Second check was to look at the free play in the trigger to see whether someone had played around with the sear lever or with the fork in the trigger linkage that Idahoron mentioned above. No problems there - I have maybe 1/8 inch of free play, which is normal.

Third check was whether it looked like anybody had messed with the engagement surface on the sear. It didn't, and David thinks that the polishing I did with 600 grit paper would not have changed anything for the worse.

Final check was for any burrs, anywhere in the lock, that might be interfering with engagement between sear and tumbler (can cause either very heavy or very light triggers). No problems there either.

So... David concurs, the angle of the engagement surface on the tumbler plus the rounding of that surface which almost certainly happened when it was played with is the issue. He tells me that when TC stopped producing parts for the traditional line of rifles, The Gunworks bought up all the lock parts they could find, but they have now run out of right-hand tumblers, and good ones are almost impossible to find. However, Lyman asked Investarms to make what amounts to a copy of the TC lock, and Investarms-made tumblers are an exact fit for the TC rifles... except that the hammer screw threads are metric. So... David thinks I'm on the right track, and encouraged me to go ahead and try to fix the sear engagement surface of the tumbler. If things go awry, I can always buy an Investarms tumbler and start over.

My plan is to create what amounts to a miniature sanding block which matches the desired angle between the engagement surface of the tumbler and the flat surface of the tumbler which adjoins it, carefully attach 350 grit paper to the little block so that the paper follows the exact contour of the sanding block, protect the flat part of the tumbler with tape to keep it from getting worn down as I true up the engagement surface and modify its angle, carefully true the engagement surface, polish the surface, and test the trigger pull. Truing the engagement surface and modifying the angle shouldn't involve removing more than a few thousands of an inch of material. If the trigger is still too light, I will modify the sanding block to make the angle a little smaller, and iterate as needed. As best as I can eyeball it with the help of a precision steel ruler, the angle is close to 90 degrees.

So.... how to make the sanding blocks? I don't have any machine tools available, but I do have an exceptionally precise Makita miter saw which I use for finish carpentry and cabinet/furniture building, and the carbide blade on that saw can cut soft aluminum (if you go slow) and produce a very smooth, flat surface - at any desired angle to the bar. So... I bought a piece of 1/8 thick by 3/4 wide aluminum bar, and will make my sanding block(s) by cutting pieces of the aluminum bar with bevels which match the desired angle. Then I'll use a file to gently round any edges, as needed, to ensure that the sanding block fits the sear and engages the surface correctly.

If anybody's interested, I'll take photos/making drawings as I go, and post them to this thread.

I figure that this will probably take me a day or two.... which means, LoL, that it might actually take a week, based on past project time estimate versus reality experience. Not to worry, though... right now we're iced in to the point that I can't even stand on parts of our very long, steep driveway (1/3 mile, 200 vertical feet), and the county is closing all the roads around us because they're too icy too. Temps are dropping again, so we expect to be this way for a while. Good thing we have a deer in the freezer and a big woodpile!

 

[Bert621]

PM sent

 

[HC]

Got a call from David at The Gunworks/Muzzleloading Emporium today. Extremely knowlegeable and helpful individual. He asked me to check a few things on the rifle to ensure that something I haven't thought of is causing the light trigger problem.

First check was to go to full cock and just push on the hammer, and then tap it hard with my hand to see if it would release. No problems there - it didn't release, so the depth to which the sear engages the tumbler is OK. If the full cock notch tip had been filed down too far, the sear would have released.

Second check was to look at the free play in the trigger to see whether someone had played around with the sear lever or with the fork in the trigger linkage that Idahoron mentioned above. No problems there - I have maybe 1/8 inch of free play, which is normal.

Third check was whether it looked like anybody had messed with the engagement surface on the sear. It didn't, and David thinks that the polishing I did with 600 grit paper would not have changed anything for the worse.

Final check was for any burrs, anywhere in the lock, that might be interfering with engagement between sear and tumbler (can cause either very heavy or very light triggers). No problems there either.

So... David concurs, the angle of the engagement surface on the tumbler plus the rounding of that surface which almost certainly happened when it was played with is the issue. He tells me that when TC stopped producing parts for the traditional line of rifles, The Gunworks bought up all the lock parts they could find, but they have now run out of right-hand tumblers, and good ones are almost impossible to find. However, Lyman asked Investarms to make what amounts to a copy of the TC lock, and Investarms-made tumblers are an exact fit for the TC rifles... except that the hammer screw threads are metric. So... David thinks I'm on the right track, and encouraged me to go ahead and try to fix the sear engagement surface of the tumbler. If things go awry, I can always buy an Investarms tumbler and start over.

My plan is to create what amounts to a miniature sanding block which matches the desired angle between the engagement surface of the tumbler and the flat surface of the tumbler which adjoins it, carefully attach 350 grit paper to the little block so that the paper follows the exact contour of the sanding block, protect the flat part of the tumbler with tape to keep it from getting worn down as I true up the engagement surface and modify its angle, carefully true the engagement surface, polish the surface, and test the trigger pull. Truing the engagement surface and modifying the angle shouldn't involve removing more than a few thousands of an inch of material. If the trigger is still too light, I will modify the sanding block to make the angle a little smaller, and iterate as needed. As best as I can eyeball it with the help of a precision steel ruler, the angle is close to 90 degrees.

So.... how to make the sanding blocks? I don't have any machine tools available, but I do have an exceptionally precise Makita miter saw which I use for finish carpentry and cabinet/furniture building, and the carbide blade on that saw can cut soft aluminum (if you go slow) and produce a very smooth, flat surface - at any desired angle to the bar. So... I bought a piece of 1/8 thick by 3/4 wide aluminum bar, and will make my sanding block(s) by cutting pieces of the aluminum bar with bevels which match the desired angle. Then I'll use a file to gently round any edges, as needed, to ensure that the sanding block fits the sear and engages the surface correctly.

If anybody's interested, I'll take photos/making drawings as I go, and post them to this thread.

I figure that this will probably take me a day or two.... which means, LoL, that it might actually take a week, based on past project time estimate versus reality experience. Not to worry, though... right now we're iced in to the point that I can't even stand on parts of our very long, steep driveway (1/3 mile, 200 vertical feet), and the county is closing all the roads around us because they're too icy too. Temps are dropping again, so we expect to be this way for a while. Good thing we have a deer in the freezer and a big woodpile!