large rifle primers in a 209 skirt ?

[michiganmuzzy]

The reasons I shoot the lrmp
Cleaner bp
No hard deposits in the bp
No leaks
Will take much higher load pressures
Reliably lights bh209
Tiny bit better velocity

Reasons i don't like lrmp
Pricey systems
Harder to find sometimes
Less convenient to reprime
Less convenient to load and reload
Crud ring from t7

Reasons i shoot 209s
Inexpensive
Readily available
Reliably lights bh209 (usually)
Easy to seal leaks
Very easy to load and reload

Reasons i dont like 209s
Deposits in bp
Leaky, especially in heavier loads
Crud ring from t7
bp flash hole wears out (unless you mod for a ventliner)

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I would switch to Lukes system in a heartbeat. Except for it being a little more $, which was the reason i went with Hankins DIS. Lukes seems like the best of both styles. Loads like a 209 but uses a RP.
1 question. Is friendship a timed event?

 

[ENCORE50A]

I would switch to Lukes system in a heartbeat. Except for it being Becausea little more $, which was the reason i ient with Hankins DIS. it seems like the best of both styles. Loads like a 209 but uses a RP.
1 question. Is friendship a timed event?

For what I do and want, the DIS system is out of the question.

As for Friendship, yes the matches are timed. Bob 45-70 hosts a spring match, normally in early May, that you should drive down and attend. You get 30 minutes to fire basically 5 rounds. That includes sighters. Targets are 50yds, 100yds, 200yds, chickens at 200m and pigs at 300m. If you do a search using "Friendship", you can see the flyers that Bob posted with rules.
WARNING! Don't go watch without taking a rifle.

Here's a 2018 ..….

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Agreed, the DIS is not user friendly. That is why im hoping to trade it for an ASG system. If i was in a timed event i think the ease and quickness of 209s would be a consideration. My Knights both are setup for Federal 209s. Its a super system, now. Especially for hunting. I would switch it to LRP in an instant if it were as quick and easy and cheap and reliable and leak free. But the average guy probably can't or won't go to the trouble to do the mods. If there were an LRP system as cheap and easy to use as 209s, i bet no one would look back at 209s and say "they were better".

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Do you know who or how many, if anyone, in the winners circles at friendship are using T7 powder?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Agreed, the DIS is not user friendly...……....

You really should consider a trip down to next May's match. There's a lot that can be learned there. Other shooters are more than willing to help new shooters.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Do you know who or how many, if anyone, in the winners circles at friendship are using T7 powder?

The top scoring shooter in 2014, IIRC, was Jim Stewart who was shooting a BP Xpress with T7 pellets. T7 hasn't won since.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I would love to go. I work for a boat dealer/service department. There is no busier time of year than May in Michigan for us. I have been known to get really sick in spring for a few days, tho...

 

[GM54-120]

You will see less of the advantages in LRMP unless its made for CF type pressures. Simply altering a 209 plug to take a module still having a long flame path wont ignite BH209 any better than a 209. Just compare DIS to HIS speeds. Its obvious the DIS is igniting the powder better and its obvious why it doing it......much shorter flame path.

My NULA plug is super short and i shoot loads hitting 35kpsi or more. Never had a leaking 209 primer once. So it certainly can be done but there is a huge trade off.. Tolerances have to be exact and you have to use the same primer all the time. Mine does not head space off the nose of the 209. It head spaces off the rim of the primer. 99% of the 209 is IN the breach plug. It cant bulge so it cant leak unless you somehow blow the primer.

This plug has around 1000 shots on it BTW and virtually all are much hotter than you will ever make with BH209

 

[michiganmuzzy]

You will see less of the advantages in LRMP unless its made for CF type pressures. Simply altering a 209 plug to take a module still having a long flame path wont ignite BH209 any better than a 209. Just compare DIS to HIS speeds. Its obvious the DIS is igniting the powder better and its obvious why it doing it......much shorter flame path.

And that, i believe, brings us right back to the original discussion. 209 is an excessive source of ignition. Shorten the flame path and you dont really need all that flame that the 209 puts out. A different breech plug design and a cheap (disposable?) primer "skirt' for the LRP would have a lot of people using it.

 

[GM54-120]

See my plug above for the real solution. That plug makes about 100-200fps+ more velocity vs the exact same load in a Savage MLII. I use a standard CCI209 for that and the Savage is using a Fed209A to get there.

It too has the same requirement as a LRMP though...the action must be strong enough to handle the increase in peak pressure the primer sees. The primer needs to be completely encased in a strong support of some kind.

How is it my plug has 1000 shots or more and the flash hole is still in spec?...How is it my flash channel takes forever to fill with carbon?...Care to guess?

 

[michiganmuzzy]

See my plug above for the real solution. That plug makes about 100-200fps+ more velocity vs the exact same load in a Savage MLII. I use a standard CCI209 for that and the Savage is using a Fed209A to get there.

It too has the same requirement as a LRMP though...the action must be strong enough to handle the increase in peak pressure the primer sees. The primer needs to be completely encased in a strong support of some kind.

How is it my plug has 1000 shots or more and the flash hole is still in spec?...How is it my flash channel takes forever to fill with carbon?...Care to guess?

The original discussion was about putting a LRMP in a cheap stamped skirt. Because guys who cant afford to shoot a premium gun with a premium ignition system would be interested in a system like it. The OP had heard about the increasing popularity of LRMP ignition. I agree with him that if someone were to take a cheap stamped skirt, like the 209, but with a LRMP or LRP or even a SRMP, mass produce it, cheaply, use it in an existing loose powder breech plug with a shorter flame channel, then this would be better than buying an expensive system (ASG), an inconvenient system (DIS), or an expensive rifle (Nula, Bestill). As to the why of your NULA setup being so great, i have no experience with it so i i can't venture a guess. But i do know its WAY outta my price range.

 

[50calsabot]

If you are talking about the 300gn Speer .452 (45cal) Deep Curl, then yes it is definitely a great hunting bullet. I have used it on several Deer with loads of 100gnV of Pyrodex or BH209. I have shot Deer with the 300DC with that charge from about 50yards to my farthest harvest at 206yrd, and between. Exit holes looked the same on them all (1 1/2" or so with great terminal performance in between". I would not hesitate to use it on something larger like Black Bear too.

If you are talking about this 300gn offering, I have not used it. But It would most likely be just fine since it uses the Uni Core Technology. Of the 2 I would recommend the Deep Curl.
https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullets/handgun-bullets/jacketed-handgun-bullet/4485

I think at one time the plain 300gn and its little brother the 260 were what Knight used to package with rifles many years ago. Don't know what they ship now.
I just looked at the Knight web site and I am not real sure which that one is, maybe someone else does. Sort of Looks like the Hp on the deep Curl.
You can do better by buying the bullets in Bulk and then buying the sabots separately, usually less expensive that way.
My new favorite bullet is the Lehigh .452 265gn CF. The Bloodlines (Same maker but sold though Knight) are of the same technology and are equally good. The Speer is less money and you would not go wrong with them.

 

[50calsabot]

Thank you for taking time to answer.
We are considering the Speer # 4485 300 grain soft point due to its price.

 

[Sideshow]

See my plug above for the real solution. That plug makes about 100-200fps+ more velocity vs the exact same load in a Savage MLII. I use a standard CCI209 for that and the Savage is using a Fed209A to get there.

It too has the same requirement as a LRMP though...the action must be strong enough to handle the increase in peak pressure the primer sees. The primer needs to be completely encased in a strong support of some kind.

How is it my plug has 1000 shots or more and the flash hole is still in spec?...How is it my flash channel takes forever to fill with carbon?...Care to guess?

Id like to hear WHY that plug is doing such amazing performance GM54---120 !!! The velocity difference alone is Remarkable !!! Please tell me the Specifics of its genius !!!

 

[Sideshow]

Right now i wish i had a machine shop cuz i want to build a variflame knockoff that uses a SRMP and will fit in a 209 pocket. Just to see if it can reliably ignite bh209.

It does . Remember my magspark SRP conversion nipple on the 410 White ?? Too bad its no longer made . The sidelocks needed more flame volume and since thats what they are really for they were discontinued .

 

[Sideshow]

I would switch to Lukes system in a heartbeat. Except for it being a little more $, which was the reason i went with Hankins DIS. Lukes seems like the best of both styles. Loads like a 209 but uses a RP.
1 question. Is friendship a timed event?

That DIS system could use a quick release system like new break actions have for bp . At least for bp subs like BHORN . That would be nice !!!

 

[michiganmuzzy]

That DIS system could use a quick release system like new break actions have for bp . At least for bp subs like BHORN . That would be nice !!!

Yes, for sure. Its just too troublesome and time consuming for hunting. Worked great at the range tho.

 

[GM54-120]

Id like to hear WHY that plug is doing such amazing performance GM54---120 !!! The velocity difference alone is Remarkable !!! Please tell me the Specifics of its genius !!!

4150 hardened steel
Exact sizing for the primer pocket
Small flash channel volume but 5/32 ID...less volume is less to fill which equals less erosion.
Rim is crushed between the bolt and plug...It basically cant move. Just like if it was in a shotshell. Even the bolt is recessed for the primer rim.

No leaks and less gas volume on ignition greatly reduces wear and carbon build up. I dont see how you can achieve that though in a break action. Its pretty simple with a bolt if you can head space it correctly. Ive cleaned my Savage and NULA plugs side by side after several range sessions even using a CCI209M. The difference in carbon build up is huge.

 

[Sideshow]

4150 hardened steel
Exact sizing for the primer pocket
Small flash channel volume but 5/32 ID...less volume is less to fill which equals less erosion.
Rim is crushed between the bolt and plug...It basically cant move. Just like if it was in a shotshell. Even the bolt is recessed for the primer rim.

No leaks and less gas volume on ignition greatly reduces wear and carbon build up. I dont see how you can achieve that though in a break action. Its pretty simple with a bolt if you can head space it correctly. Ive cleaned my Savage and NULA plugs side by side after several range sessions even using a CCI209M. The difference in carbon build up is huge.

So the shorter 5/32 depth is the velocity gain ?? Approximately how deep ?? I saw a pic and it kinda looked like a DIS channel to me , at least what i could see . I am curious about this extra velocity for my Rem 700 . I like the #6 you bird--doged for me . Nice point !!!!!! Lol !!! LIGHT AS POSSIBLE are the key words !!!! Thanks for that !!! So if light is good so is a great bp worth extra velocity Without the powder !!!! THAT impresses me.....

Will Melvin sell a plug ??? Just thought of that.....