Loading PPBs

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So looking forward to trying that. You make it look real easy to make a nice cartridge.
 
rfd said:
Loading PPBs really is easy, once you learn some key stuff and get over a few hurdles. I took me awhile to figuring it all out and I've yet to find good info from books or videos. Maybe this article I wrote a few years back will be of some help to ya ...

http://www.bpgang.com/ppb/ppbcartridges.pdf
Click to expand...
Great article ! Very clear and concise. I am looking at the BACO JIM455546E as a dual diameter using my current hypothesis that the step will help with minimal base obturation and allow me to touch up against the lands to ensure consistent initial resistance to assist in consistent powder ignition. In the article you suggest 1:20 as an alloy to start with, I’m assuming that there is no problem with obturation using an alloy that hard on a bore rider. My research has also indicated that most PPB loaders use thinner rather than thicker paper. I have an industrial supply of .00015 thick paper that’s at least 50 years old however it’s still completely unknown as to it’s effectiveness for the PP application. Any information is appreciated. Thanks
 
LR_Smoker said:
Great article ! Very clear and concise. I am looking at the BACO JIM455546E as a dual diameter using my current hypothesis that the step will help with minimal base obturation and allow me to touch up against the lands to ensure consistent initial resistance to assist in consistent powder ignition. In the article you suggest 1:20 as an alloy to start with, I’m assuming that there is no problem with obturation using an alloy that hard on a bore rider. My research has also indicated that most PPB loaders use thinner rather than thicker paper. I have an industrial supply of .00015 thick paper that’s at least 50 years old however it’s still completely unknown as to it’s effectiveness for the PP application. Any information is appreciated. Thanks
Click to expand...
Use 16-1 in dual diameter , base diameter seems a little big might have trouble fitting the case
 
LR_Smoker said:
Great article ! Very clear and concise. I am looking at the BACO JIM455546E as a dual diameter using my current hypothesis that the step will help with minimal base obturation and allow me to touch up against the lands to ensure consistent initial resistance to assist in consistent powder ignition. In the article you suggest 1:20 as an alloy to start with, I’m assuming that there is no problem with obturation using an alloy that hard on a bore rider. My research has also indicated that most PPB loaders use thinner rather than thicker paper. I have an industrial supply of .00015 thick paper that’s at least 50 years old however it’s still completely unknown as to it’s effectiveness for the PP application. Any information is appreciated. Thanks
Click to expand...
I used 9 LB onion skin in the 45/70 C Sharps 1874 to wrap BACO 443/530 gr /Eliptical , I sold it and swapped to a TC Renegade which uses the same set up thanks to Bob Hoyt . My CVA Paramount 45 uses the same (except) it gets wrapped with a 13.5 LB 453.5 bore . Point is your probably gonna need store bought not what you have a (lot of) /Ed
 
Randy's booklet is the best out there on PPBs by far. However, he does go into great detail using grease cookies, which most of us won't use as it eats up too much room for powder, but does spend a page on addressing loads with no cookies. Also, no mention about slick tin:lead alloy percentage at all, which is a shame 'cause that's real important.

These dayze, most .45 long range folks are loading Swiss 1-1/2F under a single .060" LDPE wad, under a 1:16 PPB slick that's in excess of 500 grains. No primer wads, no grease cookies, just fill up the case (which will accept over 80 grains drop filled - which means that a .45-70 PPB becomes a virtual .45-90 greaser), push in the wad down about 1/10" past the case mouth, twist in the PPB and squeeze the case mouth a tad. Don't matter whether the .45 case is a 70, 90, 100, 110, or (gulp!) a honkin' shoulder bustin' 120!
 
LR_Smoker said:
Great article ! Very clear and concise. I am looking at the BACO JIM455546E as a dual diameter using my current hypothesis that the step will help with minimal base obturation and allow me to touch up against the lands to ensure consistent initial resistance to assist in consistent powder ignition. In the article you suggest 1:20 as an alloy to start with, I’m assuming that there is no problem with obturation using an alloy that hard on a bore rider. My research has also indicated that most PPB loaders use thinner rather than thicker paper. I have an industrial supply of .00015 thick paper that’s at least 50 years old however it’s still completely unknown as to it’s effectiveness for the PP application. Any information is appreciated. Thanks
Click to expand...

The bugaboo for PPB cartridges is finding the "right" slick, with the "right" diameter, and the "right" thickness patch paper. When it comes to a slick's cast diameter, a single thousandth of an inch can matter. I'm currently using a JIM444530E .444" diameter slick that when patched with 7# Seth Cole paper will yield a PPB of about .449" total diameter. This allows enuf "wiggle" room to get into the rifling, even after fouling control (using bore gophers). All of the exposed PPB gets into the rifling because my Sharps rifle has been chrome moly relined and rechambered with a custom PPB reamer ... I can't load greaser cartridges in this rifle, and all new brass must be reformed before loading (I use a Lyman sizing die with about 3/8" cut off the bottom so that the brass will get sized at the mouth smaller than normal for .45-70 brass). All of this sounds like a lot of head hurting trouble, but if taken one step at a time, it's really no big deal.

Most folks will have guns with greaser chambers, so there will be some fair amount of leade or freebore. Getting the PPB as far into the rifling is important. This means building a PPB cartridge with a PPB that seats in no more than 1/10". You will Need a proper slick, one that is long (and therefore heavy) and that means having fast rifling of 1:18 down to 1:16 ... I had Lee Shaver make mine 1:17 and if the aiming and trigger finger is "on" for that shooting session it will one hole at 200 yards (um, nope, I've never been able to do that but I keep trying!).

SO, if I had a .45-70 and I wanted to experiment (or even just "mess around") with PPBs I'd contact Tom @ Accurate moulds and get him to make an aluminum mould for 500+ grain slick. A dropped diameter of .443" should work for bbls with .450" bores. This mould would be 1/2 the cost (or less) than a BACO JIM mould, and would be quite accurate (I still have some Accurate moulds and use them). Have "someone" send ya some patch paper to try out, or buy some Seth Cole or Fidelity. Cast at 1:20 and some at 1:16 (I buy pure lead and pure tin and smelt an alloy as need be). Have "someone" send ya some .060" LDPE .460" wads to try out or buy some from BACO. Make a powder drop tube - use an arrow shaft or brass or aluminum tubing along with a small aluminum or brass or paper funnel. Use a 7/16" piece of dowel to compress the powder down between .100" and .125" past the case mouth. Learn how to cut that patch paper to a proper width and length - it ain't that hard, promise. Cast and wrap up some slicks. Prime and charge some brass with whatever real black powder ya have on hand. Drop fill the brass. Push in the wad. Use that dowel to push the wad down past the case mouth. Twist in yer PPB. Ya done built yerself a PPB cartridge, build some more. Go and bang it off at 50, 100, 200 yards. Take notes. Have fun!

PS - I'm that "someone". :cool:
 
rfd said:
The bugaboo for PPB cartridges is finding the "right" slick, with the "right" diameter, and the "right" thickness patch paper. When it comes to a slick's cast diameter, a single thousandth of an inch can matter. I'm currently using a JIM444530E .444" diameter slick that when patched with 7# Seth Cole paper will yield a PPB of about .449" total diameter. This allows enuf "wiggle" room to get into the rifling, even after fouling control (using bore gophers). All of the exposed PPB gets into the rifling because my Sharps rifle has been chrome moly relined and rechambered with a custom PPB reamer ... I can't load greaser cartridges in this rifle, and all new brass must be reformed before loading (I use a Lyman sizing die with about 3/8" cut off the bottom so that the brass will get sized at the mouth smaller than normal for .45-70 brass). All of this sounds like a lot of head hurting trouble, but if taken one step at a time, it's really no big deal.

Most folks will have guns with greaser chambers, so there will be some fair amount of leade or freebore. Getting the PPB as far into the rifling is important. This means building a PPB cartridge with a PPB that seats in no more than 1/10". You will Need a proper slick, one that is long (and therefore heavy) and that means having fast rifling of 1:18 down to 1:16 ... I had Lee Shaver make mine 1:17 and if the aiming and trigger finger is "on" for that shooting session it will one hole at 200 yards (um, nope, I've never been able to do that but I keep trying!).

SO, if I had a .45-70 and I wanted to experiment (or even just "mess around") with PPBs I'd contact Tom @ Accurate moulds and get him to make an aluminum mould for 500+ grain slick. A dropped diameter of .443" should work for bbls with .450" bores. This mould would be 1/2 the cost (or less) than a BACO JIM mould, and would be quite accurate (I still have some Accurate moulds and use them). Have "someone" send ya some patch paper to try out, or buy some Seth Cole or Fidelity. Cast at 1:20 and some at 1:16 (I buy pure lead and pure tin and smelt an alloy as need be). Have "someone" send ya some .060" LDPE .460" wads to try out or buy some from BACO. Make a powder drop tube - use an arrow shaft or brass or aluminum tubing along with a small aluminum or brass or paper funnel. Use a 7/16" piece of dowel to compress the powder down between .100" and .125" past the case mouth. Learn how to cut that patch paper to a proper width and length - it ain't that hard, promise. Cast and wrap up some slicks. Prime and charge some brass with whatever real black powder ya have on hand. Drop fill the brass. Push in the wad. Use that dowel to push the wad down past the case mouth. Twist in yer PPB. Ya done built yerself a PPB cartridge, build some more. Go and bang it off at 50, 100, 200 yards. Take notes. Have fun!

PS - I'm that "someone". :cool:
Click to expand...
Thanks for all the great information.
May I PM you ?
 
When I first started PP'ing I had no idea where to start because there is so much info out there. So I started by asking Kirk, the owner of Shiloh who not only builds the guns but shoots and "hunts" with them and pp bullets. I'd read about the 7 degree leade and asked him about it. He said it wasn't necessary but he would do it if I wanted. I follow the competitors and who does better than average and picked their brains to see what would help me. Also the guys that hunt with PP as this is what I choose to do. I am not a competitor other than with myself. While 16/1 is a great start for long range it is way too hard for a hunting bullet.30/1 for most north American game and 20/1 for the thicker skinned critters such as buffalo. Grease cookies are used by 99% of the hunters and different wad stacks are used by the competitors. I don't know how many folks use the PP cut chambers, I do know that some of the top shooters such as Kenny Wasserburger say it is not necessary. I do believe he still holds the 5@200 record.
 
EVERYTHING about BPCR is incredibly subjective, just like anything to do with all firearms and lotsa other stuff in life. It's all about what yer needs are with a BPCR rifle. I ran greaser chambers for many years, they worked just fine, and I won matches with them. I had an opportunity to use a custom reamer and I feel it's added to my score, makes for a better/easier cartridge build, the tighter chamber is better on the brass, and no freebore leade to be concerned about the slick having to obturate into.

If yer gonna run both PPBs and greasers, and you gun hunt, then a greaser chamber makes sense. I have no need for greasers and target shooting - greasers mean OAL and leading issues, none of which are of PPB concern. BPCR means long range targets for me, so grease cookies are detrimental since I'll bore gopher wipe 'tween shots.

Kenny may see no need for a PPB chamber, but there are other top shooters who do, like Brent Danielson. Like, who really cares? This isn't a "my way is better than yers" deal. Do what you think is best, have fun, shoot great scores, win matches.
 
rfd said:
EVERYTHING about BPCR is incredibly subjective, just like anything to do with all firearms and lotsa other stuff in life. It's all about what yer needs are with a BPCR rifle. I ran greaser chambers for many years, they worked just fine, and I won matches with them. I had an opportunity to use a custom reamer and I feel it's added to my score, makes for a better/easier cartridge build, the tighter chamber is better on the brass, and no freebore leade to be concerned about the slick having to obturate into.

If yer gonna run both PPBs and greasers, and you gun hunt, then a greaser chamber makes sense. I have no need for greasers and target shooting - greasers mean OAL and leading issues, none of which are of PPB concern. BPCR means long range targets for me, so grease cookies are detrimental since I'll bore gopher wipe 'tween shots.

Kenny may see no need for a PPB chamber, but there are other top shooters who do, like Brent Danielson. Like, who really cares? This isn't a "my way is better than yers" deal. Do what you think is best, have fun, shoot great scores, win matches.
Click to expand...

I agree, there are lot’s of opinions in forms of Firearms & Projectiles. Each time I have had a Paper Patch Mold Made at BACO Mr. Gullo gives me a Funny look :rolleyes: :D He say‘s Paper Patch? WHY? My answer is ALWAYS, “I understand Paper Patch, and how to get the Most out of them” (As can be seen by my Long Range Shoots, and Targets i Print on a Regular Basis with them) I enjoy Paper Patch, it is where i Started in Muzzleloading, I made them a “Pet Project“ of mine from my beginning in Muzzleloading. Are Paper Patch Bullets the most Accurate bullets you can shoot? Are they Superior to a Good Grease Groove Bullet? NOPE!! Absolutely not, But if you have the patience & willingness to understand & learn them, They can be very Rewarding. But FACT is they are NO More Accurate than a Good Grease Groove Bullet, I have MANY Grease Groove Bullets that Shoot every bit as well, and even Better than my Very Best Paper Patch

The few times Dave Gullo has flipped me 💩 (All in Fun) About my Paper Patch, I have asked him “Do you not shoot Paper Patch?” His answer is “No, But I sure LOVE Seeing those Guy’s coming” Dave is what, a 3 Time World Champion? Pretty hard to intelligently Argue with his Success with GREASE GROOVE Bullets lubed with SPG, I personally HATE Straight SPG Lube :) To each his own
 
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I like black powder PPBs for three main reasons, in no particular order - no cartridge OAL, no leading, and simple cartridge building (well, once ya figure out the slick and patching :cool: ).

Dave Gullo is a world class rifle match shooter because he's Dave Gullo - that man could win matches with anyone's gun, including using PPBs if he was force to use 'em. 😱
 
rfd said:
Dave Gullo is a world class rifle match shooter because he's Dave Gullo - that man could win matches with anyone's gun, including using PPBs if he was force to use 'em. 😱
Click to expand...

I agree, I know guy’s in Archery that are the exact same way, It doesn’t matter what Bow they shoot? You can have the BEST Bow made in the World, And They will SPANK You with Cheapest Bow on the Market
 
As you all can see I do a lot of research and as such this forum along with the extremely talented and much more experienced people are a great asset to the shooting community. We are a collection of people that appreciate the old technology and enjoy tinkering with it to obtain the best results for our applications. I hunt using a muzzleloader a lot however I also compete quite a bit with both muzzleloader and now BPCR. Both have their own requirements and quirks and that’s what makes them interesting.
There are bound to be people with different opinions on any given subject and that’s the beauty of this forum. If I had to re-invent every bit of information that has been graciously given on this forum I don’t think that I could live long enough.
I truly appreciate ALL those who contribute especially those who choose to document and explain in great detail they’re experiences.
Thank you one and all.
 

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