Lyman Mustang - BH209 and potential problem

[deermanok]

Doesn't the breech area has to be exposed or something like that?

 

[Eltaco]

What line in the regulation makes Blackhorn illegal?

Not planning to use scopes or pellets as those are clearly listed as not complying to the regulations, but I didn’t see anything that immediately qualifies Blackhorn as illegal… but could be my ignorance as a new MZ shooter.

 

[GM54-120]

Blackhorn209 is completely legal in Colorado.

 

[Dwayne]

Doesn't the breech area has to be exposed or something like that?

No breech loading guns allowed. Must be through the muzzle only.

 

[Dwayne]

Blackhorn209 is completely legal in Colorado.

Blackhorn is a nitro based powder. Not a black powder or black powder substitue.

 

[GM54-120]

Its legal in Colorado and it is most certainly a BP sub. Colorado regs only say no smokeless. They make no mention of nitro based subs being banned. People have been using BH209 in Colorado for years LEGALLY.

 

[Okie Hog]

Welcome from SW Oklahoma.

 

[Tomjoad]

@Eltaco if you are using Thor’s Sizing kit to use someone else’s bullets I’d mic those projectiles carefully and communicate clearly with your maker. I’m shooting Thor’s now and every projectile in their sizing pack is undersized by 1-2 thousands measured by micrometer or caliper. This is not an issue sizing Thor’s to shoot Thor’s (they stay consistent) but I would be cautious about using Thor’s sizing to shoot someone else’s projectile.

All caution aside Thor’s are shooting great in my ML and I’m using them for Mule Deer this season in CO (elk tag is rifle this year). I don’t understand all of the talk about CO being hard to understand for ML regs, it’s very straightforward and written in plain english:

Colorado 2021 legal methods of take, pg 14:
https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/RulesRegs/Brochure/BigGame/biggame.pdf
- no smokeless but all BP and substitutes are fine (including BH209!)
- 50 cal for elk or 54 cal if using prb
- no breech loading of the projectile
- open sights (no scopes)
- no sabots (bore riding conicals are fine)

additionally on travel with a ML:
https://cpw.state.co.us/thingstodo/Pages/Unlawful.aspx
- cannot travel in a motor vehicle (including atv) with a primed ML, unprimed but loaded with powder and projectile is legal and fine.

 

[BadgerRidge]

Blackhorn is a nitro based powder. Not a black powder or black powder substitute.

Dwayne,

Perhaps you are confused... Blackhorn209 is a Muzzle loader approved, black powder substitute. it is legal to use in Colorado to take came during the muzzle loading seasons. Also 209 primers are legal for taking game in Colorado Muzzle loader hunts (Blackhorn209 requires full powered or magnum 209 primers to ignite reliably).

Blackhorn209 however is not very forgiving or good if the powder isn't sealed by the projectile -before- the ignition is started... nor will it work with percussion caps...

Most folks use Sabots to seal the powder column when they use Blackhorn 209... but as Colorado doesn't allow sabots for hunting during muzzle loader season, there are other ways to seal projectiles before ignition... so Blackhorn209 is -legally- an option in Colorado. Will it work with your gun and bore riding (non saboted bullets) is the question...

That may be what is confusing you... perhaps you are confused about it not working with all bore riders... but it certainly is a legal muzzle loader black powder substitute.

However, there are many ways to get that powder column sealed (mostly putting some sort of a wad on top between the powder and the projectile) that you can search and read about here on this forum.

 

[Dwayne]

Dwayne,

Perhaps you are confused... Blackhorn209 is a Muzzle loader approved, black powder substitute. it is legal to use in Colorado to take came during the muzzle loading seasons. Also 209 primers are legal for taking game in Colorado Muzzle loader hunts (Blackhorn209 requires full powered or magnum 209 primers to ignite reliably).

Blackhorn209 however is not very forgiving or good if the powder isn't sealed by the projectile -before- the ignition is started... nor will it work with percussion caps...

Most folks use Sabots to seal the powder column when they use Blackhorn 209... but as Colorado doesn't allow sabots for hunting during muzzle loader season, there are other ways to seal projectiles before ignition... so Blackhorn209 is -legally- an option in Colorado. Will it work with your gun and bore riding (non saboted bullets) is the question...

That may be what is confusing you... perhaps you are confused about it not working with all bore riders... but it certainly is a legal muzzle loader black powder substitute.

However, there are many ways to get that powder column sealed (mostly putting some sort of a wad on top between the powder and the projectile) that you can search and read about here on this forum.

I am really confused now, because i talked to a ranger about 3 weeks ago on this very subject. I was only parroting what he said. He stopped to check me for my fishing license alongside the Arkansas river.

 

[BadgerRidge]

I guess the rangers don't know everything. Sometimes you do have to have them pull out the rules and read what they say word for word... or read the bottle... and see that no where does it say smokeless powder on a bottle of Black Horn.... but you probably can find the words "High performance Muzzle loader propellant"... sometimes with Game/Law Enforcement its how you talk to them. Try asking simple innocent questions and when their answers conflict with reality, calmly ask if they wouldn't mind read that to you from the rule book... keeping your calm...and maybe even pulling out the rules, on your phone or out of a pocket & telling them what paragraph to read like:

"Paragraph 2.m of the Colorado Big game rules prohibit smokeless in muzzle loaders, but say Black Powder & Black Powder Substitutes are legal... doesn't it?"

Or "The rules prohibit pellets, but BlackHorn209 is loose powder and on the bottle is says muzzle loader propellant..."

or "Wow the manufacturer's website says its legal here."... "are you 100% sure the judge will agree with you?"

'do you have a supervisor or dispatcher you could call and ask, just to be sure?'

The BH209 website has more info on this too... and you can typically find other stuff from Colorado officials too if you google it.


Typically if you can just get them to doubt themselves in a non confrontational manner even the most bull headed enforcement official will let you go cause they don't want the embarrassment of going in front of a judge and getting a lecture... and the ensuing harassment from their piers... they will educate themselves if they aren't in a big fight and see that they are dealing with a rational person who's just trying to hunt within the law.

I am really confused now, because i talked to a ranger about 3 weeks ago on this very subject. I was only parroting what he said. He stopped to check me for my fishing license alongside the Arkansas river.

oh and here's a field and stream article about the topic that says BH209 is a Colorado option:

https://www.fieldandstream.com/how-to-build-best-muzzleloader-rig-for-western-big-game-hunting/

 

[mnoland30]

I've used 777 for years, and I swab my barrel between shots. I hardly ever have a chance at a second shot, and usually don't need one. I lick a patch and run it down, scrub a few times and pull it. I turn it over and repeat. I repeat with a dry patch. My second and third shots go to the same point. Many people foul their barrel by poppig a couple of primers before loading. The primers are non-corrosive (unlike 777) so it doesn't hurt your barrel. That way, they are always shooting a fouled barrel. People love BH 209 because is is clean, but it is very expensive and I've had misfires with it, and I've never had a misfire with 777. Most poeple recommend special low power muzzleloader primers for 777 because of the potential of the primer moving the bullet before igniting the powder. That probably isn't going to be a problem with big conicals. I don't recommend anything less than 400 gr. for elk, although the Thor's are lighter and are good bullets.

 

[Eltaco]

Thanks for all of the replies.

I ended up finding a used Knight Mountaineer with Bestill plug, setup with the iron sights I wanted for CO for a reasonable price. After learning my Lyman bore was sized over 0.503”, I found my bore riding conicals options were extremely limited and felt safer with a different rifle. Further, Lyman told me they no longer service the Mustang and don’t have parts for it. That ended up being all I needed to hear to make a decision

Have some Fury bullets on order, then I’m ready to get some experience with this Knight!

 

[deermanok]

Good luck with the new rig.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

You can sell that Lyman to pay for more supplies for your Knight.

 

[Hbnewby]

I just keep on learning more and more.