Muzzleloader Barrel Leading

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Idaholewis

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I did a Video this morning showing Why i feel the importance of an Over Powder Wad, To show that when you Load a Lead bullet directly on top of the Powder that it will Lead your Barrel, It has done this with me EVERY time i have tried it, I admit that i haven’t done it that much simply because it makes NO Sense to me to Not use an Over Powder Wad? PROTECT that Bullet Base! After all, it is the Bullet Base that actually steers it :yeah: An Over Powder Wad takes just a few extra Seconds to Load, If you are trying to get the most out of your Rifle, I HIGHLY advise you to use an Over Powder Wad! Hotter powders like Swiss, and Triple Seven are HARSH on Bullet Bases

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All of these Targets have 1 thing in Common, they were ALL shot using Over Powder Wads. Could i have done this without Over Powder Wads? I don’t know? I use OP Wads EVERYTIME i shoot, They simply make good Sense to use. My results speak for themselves, I will continue using OP Wads as long as i am Able to Shoot Muzzleloaders, I believe they are that important :yeah:

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Great video Lew. Nothing like a little hard evidence to drive home the concept. :yeah:
 
I read somewhere/someone/group proved years ago that it’s the hot gases from the powder ignition, running up the side of the bullet (grooves) without a wad that caused leading - providing good lube on bullet to start with. This occurred before the base had time to expand and seal off - which is too late.
I can’t recall if lead hardness was a factor in these test.

I’ve shot some equally good groups without a wad vs with a wad on a flat based heavy conicals bullet made of pure lead. The no wad showed no eveidence of leading - my only dislike was I would get a flyer every now and then.
Now that I think on this, I think a recovered bullet (base) would give some indication.
 
52Bore said:
I read somewhere/someone/group proved years ago that it’s the hot gases from the powder ignition, running up the side of the bullet (grooves) without a wad that caused leading - providing good lube on bullet to start with. This occurred before the base had time to expand and seal off - which is too late.
I can’t recall if lead hardness was a factor in these test.

I’ve shot some equally good groups without a wad vs with a wad on a flat based heavy conicals bullet made of pure lead. The no wad showed no eveidence of leading - my only dislike was I would get a flyer every now and then.
Now that I think on this, I think a recovered bullet (base) would give some indication.


That is very plausible Rick, The leading i get ONLY occurs the first few inches of “Take off” (Breech end) Maybe the leading is coming from the Sides as well? It makes sense that it could happen before “Bump up” Occurs. My experience Without using an Over Powder Wad i Get Leading, and it happens EVERY time. Really Hot powders like Swiss, and Even more so Triple Seven would Have to be REALLY HARSH on a Lead Bullet without an Over powder Wad.

Look at these 1/8” Wool Felt OP Wads after 80 Volume Grains of T7 3F, What would have happened to the Bullet bases had these Wool Wads not Been there to protect? This Triple 7 was Harder on The 1/8” Wool Felt than My Swiss Powder is. The Group i Shot here was AWESOME, that tells me the 1/8” Wool Felt did it’s Job. The Wool Wads I Recover from Swiss look almost Re usable, NOT the Case with Tripe Seven, it Raggs them up pretty bad!
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52Bore said:
Now that I think on this, I think a recovered bullet (base) would give some indication.

I will get a Trap setup and Catch a Few :yeah: I’m thinking Water, and Lots of it. 55 Gallon Plastic Drum. I will Scribe Bases something like this, See what they look like when Recovered? Bullet sitting directly on top of 80 Grains of Triple Seven, and the Same 80 of Swiss

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I wouldn’t be surprised to see powder flake impressions on the base when recovered.
I think I’d shoot into magazines or wood. RonL capture test - the water radius the bullet base and sometimes tumble making the base smeared.
Just a thought if your going to the effort.
 
Good Idea Lew! You could use Ron's method but maybe eliminate the plywood and just shoot into 5 or 6-gallon water jugs? That may mean you'll have to drink a lot of milk or water, or you can ask Ron where he gets his jugs from? :D
 
One would think a plastic sabot would show evidence of melting.
 
52Bore said:
One would think a plastic sabot would show evidence of melting.

Not anymore so than a shotgun wad or shotshell is exposed to using fast burning nitro powders that also burn much hotter.

Here are a couple i shot at way faster speeds than you can achieve even with BH209.
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I shoot 80-85 gr of 2f 777 in my .451 White with a Bullshop or Eds 460 gr conical, no wad and have not experienced any leading or accuracy problems. I've shot 777 in my other Whites with 80-85 gr, 460 gr conical and so far no leading is evident.
I shot my new to me Knight 1:30 .45 with 70 gr of BH209 today with a thick fiber wad and Eds 360 gr conical and at 55 yds. it shot a 1 in 3 shot group but if I played with powder charges could get it a lot smaller I think.. Was shooting off hood of truck standing rested on cushion so not most stable shooting platform.
I do believe a over powder wad does close your groups up and helps them be more consistent.
 
I have shot without an Over Powder Wad at least a 1/2 Dozen times and each time i got LEAD on My Swabbing patches, That was 5 times more than i needed to know better than to Continue without using an Over Powder Wad, TC’s QLA Muzzle with an Over Powder Wad proved Disastrous for me, That is where I shot the most without an Over Powder Wad. Most recent Shooting Session without an OP Wad was in a CVA Wolf with my Newest 50 Cal Bullet, We we’re trying to get his Rifle dialed in a Day or 2 before Elk season opened, i had everything ready to shoot his Rifle, When we started to load I noticed the Wolf Muzzle had CVA’s Version of QLA, Due to my previous history with TC’s QLA Muzzle, And the Little time we had to Sight the Rifle in, i chose to NOT use an Over Powder Wad, The powder charge was 80 Volume of Pyrodex P (His powder) That was the Worst leading i have Seen so far, Accuracy was Mediocre, 3-4” Group. The Guy ended up Killing a Cow Elk with it.

Fact is, Leading has happened in my Barrels EVERY SINGLE time i have tried shooting without using an Over Powder Wad, This is why i put it on Video yesterday, To show my experiences with it. It would have Shocked me if it Had NOT of Leaded the Barrel, in the Video i state something like “If this does like it has every time i have tried it, you will see Lead on my Swabbing Patches” I was Confident it would do it, And it DID!

Triple 7 Would have to be MURDEROUS on Lead, The 3 Wool Wads in the Pic above are the only 3 that Stayed in Tact, The others were Worse off. How can that be explained? 80 Grains of T7 Virtually Destroys an 1/8” Thick Wool Over Powder Wad, How could it not have Serious effect on a Lead Bullet sitting Directly on the powder?
 
Back in early 2016 i see in my Notes where i was Shooting Some Maxi balls, Lee REAL’s, and Some Minie Balls, I was back n forth between using Over Powder Wads, and Not using them, I don’t have anything written Down about Finding Lead in my Barrels then. I was also Very Young in this Sport at that time, I was not shooting anywhere near the Level of accuracy i am now
 
This is From Doc White, Looks like he Knew this as Well :D

LEADING AND “PLASTIKING”
All lead bullets will leave small amounts of lead in the barrels they are shot from if velocities, pressure and heat generated are high enough. All plastic sabots will do the same thing under the same circumstances, in fact, to a far worse degree than does a lead bullet, a phenomenon that I call “plastiking.” The problem with leading and plastiking is that any amount of lead or plastic left in the barrel interferes with loading and ruins accuracy.
It is a wonder to me that the muzzleloading companies that brag about their 2000 FPS plus loads with plastic sabots and short pistol bullets never say a word about having to clean the barrel after every shot to get the plastic out so the next load can be rammed home and have a chance of accuracy. Somehow, I can’t envision myself furiously cleaning a barrel for another shot when the biggest whitetail in the world is getting away because I made a poor first shot in the excitement. Such a requirement with a muzzleloading hunting rifle is impractical and intolerable.
Wads can be used to protect the base of the bullet, much the way a gas check protects a modern lead bullet. The woven wool wads made by OX Yoke or the wool felt wads made by the Thompson Co. fill this need quite nicely. Both are lubricated, are quite tough and hold together well, and allow another 100-200 fps velocity before leading or plastiking takes place. This is an excellent technique for large, powerful loads on big and/or dangerous game.
Wool or felt lubricated base wads protect the base of a lead bullet from hot powder gases just like gas checks do on modern centerfire bullets.
 
I think a lot of things come into play with leading and maybe this "plasticing". Rifling depth comes to mind first off, then this idea that the powder burning affects the plastic enough to leave some in the rifling due to heat. BUT, I have my doubts on the plastic.

I've never seen any evidence of plastic from sabots being sloughed off in my barrels when I'm shooting BH209 or even when I shot T7 Magnum pellets. This holds true for all of my current guns and some before these. Plastic deformity is more of a pressure thing than a heat thing so I just can't bite this off and chew it very well. I might concede to the leading if I shot full bore lead bullets without any over-powder wad protection, not so with the plastic.
 
MrTom said:
I think a lot of things come into play with leading and maybe this "plasticing". Rifling depth comes to mind first off, then this idea that the powder burning affects the plastic enough to leave some in the rifling due to heat. BUT, I have my doubts on the plastic.

I've never seen any evidence of plastic from sabots being sloughed off in my barrels when I'm shooting BH209 or even when I shot T7 Magnum pellets. This holds true for all of my current guns and some before these. Plastic deformity is more of a pressure thing than a heat thing so I just can't bite this off and chew it very well. I might concede to the leading if I shot full bore lead bullets without any over-powder wad protection, not so with the plastic.

I have Zero experience with Plastic/Sabot Stuff myself. But i do VIVIDLY remember Idahoron speaking of Pulling long Strips of Plastic from a Barrel (MK-85 I believe?) He might even have pictures of it?
 
I think the plastic used in today's sabots is so finely formulated that sloughing it is a moot issue unless the barrel being fired thru is rough in the first place and has areas that catch plastic as it passes. That would not be the fault of the plastic. I haven't tried the full bore bullets yet so I can't speak for them however I do know that sabots will let you know if the barrel needs wiping due to fouling of any sort. I shoot 209 in all of my in-lines and never get hard or rough loading regardless of how many shots were fired previously so I don't feel that any plastic is remaining in my barrels from any previous shot. I'd feel the drag if such were the case.

All of my experience with lead bullets requiring no sabot has been in side locks and those of course got wiped between shots and I have yet to try any load in the one side lock I have even though I have the assorted sabots and .50 cal bullets to do so. If and when this weapon is shot it will be with T7 granular, get wiped between shots and I have no thoughts at all on the sabots leaving plastic residue in the barrel. This may have been an issue when sabots were first introduced in a big way but todays plastic sabots are designed for the pressures and higher heats associated with those pressures. If sabots can withstand the heat levels generated by smokeless powder load and tolerate the pressures found with smokeless its not likely black powder and the subs will cause any plastic shedding in clean barrels, and by clean I mean without any rough spots.
 
MrTom said:
I think the plastic used in today's sabots is so finely formulated that sloughing it is a moot issue unless the barrel being fired thru is rough in the first place and has areas that catch plastic as it passes. That would not be the fault of the plastic. I haven't tried the full bore bullets yet so I can't speak for them however I do know that sabots will let you know if the barrel needs wiping due to fouling of any sort. I shoot 209 in all of my in-lines and never get hard or rough loading regardless of how many shots were fired previously so I don't feel that any plastic is remaining in my barrels from any previous shot. I'd feel the drag if such were the case.

All of my experience with lead bullets requiring no sabot has been in side locks and those of course got wiped between shots and I have yet to try any load in the one side lock I have even though I have the assorted sabots and .50 cal bullets to do so. If and when this weapon is shot it will be with T7 granular, get wiped between shots and I have no thoughts at all on the sabots leaving plastic residue in the barrel. This may have been an issue when sabots were first introduced in a big way but todays plastic sabots are designed for the pressures and higher heats associated with those pressures. If sabots can withstand the heat levels generated by smokeless powder load and tolerate the pressures found with smokeless its not likely black powder and the subs will cause any plastic shedding in clean barrels, and by clean I mean without any rough spots.

I have no doubt the Plastic stuff of today is better than the Old stuff, Like many other things Technology has come a Long Ways

As for Lead bullets, Material wise they haven’t changed much :D
 

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