Muzzleloader Barrel Leading

[Idaholewis]

I copied this from Montana Bullet Works. Here again, This fella says anything much over 700 fps and you get leading
20:1 is EXTREMELY popular with BPCR, These fellas are real Sticklers on their Bullet bases :yeah:

The 20:1 (lead:tin) alloy goes back well over a hundred years when the properties of other alloyable elements where unknown. Tin was added to lead as a hardening agent. Without a paper or cloth patch, a pure lead bullet cannot be fired at much over 700 fps without leading. The addition of 5% tin, hardens the bullet enough for black powder generated velocities. Tin, however, is not the ideal hardening agent. Tin’s primary purpose in today’s lead alloys is twofold. First, tin reduces the surface tension in lead alloys. What this means is that the lead casts better bullets at a lower temperature. Bullets that have sharp edged grease grooves or other features come out sharp edged. Second, with tin in your alloy, you can cast these bullets at a lower temperature than you could with pure lead. Everything stays cooler– your pot, moulds and yourself– and you spend your time making bullets, not waiting for the mould to cool. In addition, at over $10.00/lb, tin is the most expensive component of a casting alloy and only about 1 to 2% is all that’s needed to obtain it’s desirable features.

The main problem with a straight lead:tin alloy is that you can’t change the hardness of the bullet. A 20:1 alloy makes a bullet with a Brinell Hardness Number (BHN) of 12. Under good conditions, a bullet made with a BHN of 12 can be shot to about 1300 fps–black powder velocities–but not above without severe leading problems. The most practical, affordable and versatile hardening agent is Antimony. The cheapest source of Antimony is found in wheel weights. With 4-6% Antimony in your alloy you can do amazing things. Cast and allowed to cool at room temperature, our alloy makes a bullet with a BHN of 15–soft enough for black powder velocities, but with a little extra margin if higher velocities, i.e. with smokeless powder, is needed. If water quenched straight from the mould, this same alloy hardens to a BHN of 24, which can tolerate velocities of over 1600 fps. And if you’re really in a pinch, this same alloy can be annealed and the BHN brought down to 8 or 9. A lead:tin:antimony alloy is the most flexible and least expensive alloy to obtain. My bullet prices reflect this.

 

[edmehlig]

Lew, back in February I wrote to Doc White and asked him what he thought was the best lead mixture Pure, 40-1 or whatever. His response back to me was " 2% TIN, SHINER BULLETS, BETTER CASTING QUALITY, NO CHANGE IN bRINELL #> doc

I still haven't taken the plunge yet, nor do I feel like mixng Tin etc. I failed Chemistry in High School, so I'm sure I wouldn't be good at mixing the appropriate amount of 2% tin in my pot of pure lead. Is your 40-1 mix the same as 2% Tin? If so would be a heck of a lot easier to just order it that way. :lol:

 

[Idaholewis]

Ed, From what i found and posted above, Doc White also knew the importance of an Over Powder Wad to protect the Bullet Base :yeah:

 

[Idaholewis]

Shiloh Forum

One of my acquaintances captured a bullet that had been shot without a wad. Needless to say, the base was very cratered. This is the bullet that "Kurt" captured and posted the picture of.

 

[Idaholewis]

By Mike Venturino


BPCR & Long Range Bullets

Now let's look at the vastly different bullets useful for BPCR Silhouette and Long Range. First off, forget the linotype alloy. Experience has proven that very hard cast bullets fired over blackpowder charges delivering velocities only in the 1150 to 1400 fps range can be accurate, but they leave excessive leading. A very hard bullet doesn't obturate to seal the bore at blackpowder pressures, and therefore gas cuts past its base and leaves melted lead plated inside the barrel. Almost universally, BPCR competitors are using blends of pure lead and pure tin in proportions of 1:20 to 1:30. The 1:30 alloy has a BHN of 9 while 1:20 alloy has a BHN of 10. I favor the 1:20 blend.

The rules for these long-range BPCR matches do not allow gas-check-type bullets, so shooters protect the bullet's bases in another way. We cut or buy wads that are placed between the powder charge and the bullet's base. These come in many types, such as cardboard punched from ordinary tablet backing to commercial vegetable fiber and even plastic wads. In the old days I used to cut .030-inch cardboard wads myself, but since John Walters began selling his vegetable fiber wads I'll never take wad punch in hand again. Walters's wads come in all the correct sizes for blackpowder cartridge rifles and either in .030- or .060-inch thickness. I've settled on the latter for my shooting

 

[Renegadehunter]

You've convinced me to try a wad the next time I shoot some conicals in the Renegade. I'm pleased with the groups I get now without one, so can't wait to try it with them. I'm getting a 3 shot 2-1/2" group at 100 yards with 100grs of 2f Scheutzen with a 425 Hornady GPB. You say you like to shoot an oversized wad, so I should get some .58 wads for my .54? Thanks

 

[Idaholewis]

You've convinced me to try a wad the next time I shoot some conicals in the Renegade. I'm pleased with the groups I get now without one, so can't wait to try it with them. I'm getting a 3 shot 2-1/2" group at 100 yards with 100grs of 2f Scheutzen with a 425 Hornady GPB. You say you like to shoot an oversized wad, so I should get some .58 wads for my .54? Thanks

In 54 Cal i do use 58 Wool, I believe this is more with Hotter powders like Swiss and Triple 7, I am not sure about Scheutzen powder? If it is anything like regular Goex I don’t believe you are Burning the Full 100 Grains? My Dad and i shot together over Snow a few years back, His load has always been 100 Volume Grains of Goex 2F, After he Shot a time or 2 I walked up to check his target, there was a Line of unburned Powder sprinkled across the Snow. My Swiss on the other hand left no trace of anything on the Snow. With Dad’s load mentioned above an OP Wad might not be doing anything? Since he is Blowing unburned powder out across the Ground I don’t believe the Heat is getting to the Bullet base? This is just theory of course. Dad uses 58 Cal Wool OP Wads (Per my suggestion) He shoots his open sights EXTREMELY well. The best advice i can give on this is, If it ain’t Broke don’t fix it! If you are having good luck with your Setup i would continue the Same routine. An 1/8” wool Felt Over Powder wad has NEVER hurt anything for me! They are reasonably priced, and take just an Extra few seconds to Push down on the Powder, I am Confident they will not Hurt anything added to your Setup, Only you will know if they improve accuracy, or no change at all?

 

[451 whitworth]

You've convinced me to try a wad the next time I shoot some conicals in the Renegade. I'm pleased with the groups I get now without one, so can't wait to try it with them. I'm getting a 3 shot 2-1/2" group at 100 yards with 100grs of 2f Scheutzen with a 425 Hornady GPB. You say you like to shoot an oversized wad, so I should get some .58 wads for my .54? Thanks

In 54 Cal i do use 58 Wool, I believe this is more with Hotter powders like Swiss and Triple 7, I am not sure about Schuetzen powder? If it is anything like regular Goex I don’t believe you are Burning the Full 100 Grains? My Dad and i shot together over Snow a few years back, His load has always been 100 Volume Grains of Goex 2F, After he Shot a time or 2 I walked up to check his target, there was a Line of unburned Powder sprinkled across the Snow. My Swiss on the other hand left no trace of anything on the Snow. With Dad’s load mentioned above an OP Wad might not be doing anything? Since he is Blowing unburned powder out across the Ground I don’t believe the Heat is getting to the Bullet base? This is just theory of course. Dad uses 58 Cal Wool OP Wads (Per my suggestion) He shoots his open sights EXTREMELY well. The best advice i can give on this is, If it ain’t Broke don’t fix it! If you are having good luck with your Setup i would continue the Same routine. An 1/8” wool Felt Over Powder wad has NEVER hurt anything for me! They are reasonably priced, and take just an Extra few seconds to Push down on the Powder, I am Confident they will not Hurt anything added to your Setup, Only you will know if they improve accuracy, or no change at all?

I would agree with you Lewis. Red can Goex, Schuetzen, and Pyrodex, in my testing, most times don't need a wad in your standard 1-48" twist T/C, CVA, Lyman. Sometimes a certain rifle might prefer a wad but most .50 and .54 replicas using those powders don't and sometimes shoot worse with the wad. My fast twist .45's shoot better with wads, I consider them mandatory, and I use a Circle Fly card wad over the powder then a lubed wool wad then load the bullet. That's the way the British did it and they kinda invented the fast twist .451 muzzleloader. The .45's with their heavy for caliber projectiles operate at higher pressures and are harder on bullets. You can also get away with pure lead when using Goex red can, Schuetzen, or Pyrodex as the velocity maxes out quickly and dosen't rise much past 100 gr. of those powders in .50 and .54's with bullets.

 

[Idaholewis]

I have yet to have an 1/8” Wool Felt Wad Hurt anything, and i shoot a BUNCH, Hard Card wads YES i have seen them cause problems! But not Wool Felt

I have laid out PLENTY of evidence to Support the importance of an Over powder Wad to protect the Bullet Base, and Leading of the Barrel. It’s up to you to decide if OP Wads are worth trying or not? My feelings are not hurt one way or the other, in fact i could care less what you shoot, or what you don’t, I don’t Sell Over powder Wads, I don’t make a Penny if you choose to use an OP Wad. I did this to help Guy’s that want to Squeeze everything possible out of their Rifles, Wool Felt OP Wads are Cheap, They are Simple to use, They take an extra few Seconds to Ad them to your Routine, They make GOOD SENSE to use, And You don’t have much to lose by trying them.

What each of us find as acceptable is gonna be different, It is no secret that i strive for Accuracy in this Stuff, That is my No.1 Goal, To Squeeze everything i possibly can out of Each and everyone of my Rifles. I rarely Shoot offhand, or off Shooting Stix, 99% of my Shooting is from a Bench, As solid a Platform as i can Make. I have more in my Front and Rear Rest than a lot of folks have in their Entire Rifle, But this is what i love to do and it’s worth every penny to me. If i tell you something works, You can take it to the Bank that I have studied it, worked it over, and I believe in it. I believe in 1/8” Wool Felt OP Wads :yeah:

 

[Magnum]

I too use the oversized felt wads I punch and lube myself. They really tightened my groups. If I don’t have confidence in my gun and loads it will stay home from hunting until I have that confidence in that setup. Listen to Lewis. He knows what he’s talking about with these smoke poles.

 

[Renegadehunter]

You've convinced me to try a wad the next time I shoot some conicals in the Renegade. I'm pleased with the groups I get now without one, so can't wait to try it with them. I'm getting a 3 shot 2-1/2" group at 100 yards with 100grs of 2f Scheutzen with a 425 Hornady GPB. You say you like to shoot an oversized wad, so I should get some .58 wads for my .54? Thanks

In 54 Cal i do use 58 Wool, I believe this is more with Hotter powders like Swiss and Triple 7, I am not sure about Scheutzen powder? If it is anything like regular Goex I don’t believe you are Burning the Full 100 Grains? My Dad and i shot together over Snow a few years back, His load has always been 100 Volume Grains of Goex 2F, After he Shot a time or 2 I walked up to check his target, there was a Line of unburned Powder sprinkled across the Snow. My Swiss on the other hand left no trace of anything on the Snow. With Dad’s load mentioned above an OP Wad might not be doing anything? Since he is Blowing unburned powder out across the Ground I don’t believe the Heat is getting to the Bullet base? This is just theory of course. Dad uses 58 Cal Wool OP Wads (Per my suggestion) He shoots his open sights EXTREMELY well. The best advice i can give on this is, If it ain’t Broke don’t fix it! If you are having good luck with your Setup i would continue the Same routine. An 1/8” wool Felt Over Powder wad has NEVER hurt anything for me! They are reasonably priced, and take just an Extra few seconds to Push down on the Powder, I am Confident they will not Hurt anything added to your Setup, Only you will know if they improve accuracy, or no change at all?

I find Scheutzen to be about like Goex, except it seems to be just a tad cleaner for fouling...not much though. I shoot the same established load volumes in either one and see no difference in group size or POI. I have no local resource for real BP except for the local Muzzleloader club that sells it to members, they buy bigger quantities online, so I just buy whatever they have on hand. One of these days I'll do an online purchase with some buddies or pay closer attention to suppliers when I'm traveling to try some Swiss, I've never heard a bad word about it...except for the higher cost. More than worth it to me if there is less fouling. I'm also curious about the Graf brand powder, which I hear is just Schuetzen but made with a better charcoal. A lot of people think that Swiss is so good because of two things: Their use of Buckthorne Alder as a charcoal and their QC ability to sort the good from the bad.

As far as not burning all the powder, you could be right. I've never done a white blanket or snow test to check. 100 grains was the first charge I tried and it was easily "minute of elk" at 100 yards, which I set as my own personal ethical max range, so I didn't even try any other loads. Perhaps it would also shoot well at an 80 or 90 grain charge. Curious, has your dad tried a lesser charge over snow or a white sheet and found that it quit doing this? Perhaps it is just "dirty" particles, if Swiss leaves less fouling I'd imagine there'd be less crud that could be blasted out as well. I think it would be interesting to use a white sheet to collect the particles and then see if they could be lit or not, as in are they truly unburnt?

I will be testing a wad with my conical load at the range at some point though, I like the idea of no lead build up in the barrel. While I rarely shoot conicals, I'd rather not have to worry about possible lead build up. I don't think my water with a couple of drops of dish soap cleaning method is capable of removing lead, so best to avoid it if it's as easy as adding a wad. If accuracy improves as well, then that's a nice bonus. I know that you eat & sleep conicals, so I'll be trying wads. 8)

 

[idahoron]

I think a lot of things come into play with leading and maybe this "plasticing". Rifling depth comes to mind first off, then this idea that the powder burning affects the plastic enough to leave some in the rifling due to heat. BUT, I have my doubts on the plastic.

I've never seen any evidence of plastic from sabots being sloughed off in my barrels when I'm shooting BH209 or even when I shot T7 Magnum pellets. This holds true for all of my current guns and some before these. Plastic deformity is more of a pressure thing than a heat thing so I just can't bite this off and chew it very well. I might concede to the leading if I shot full bore lead bullets without any over-powder wad protection, not so with the plastic.

I have Zero experience with Plastic/Sabot Stuff myself. But i do VIVIDLY remember Idahoron speaking of Pulling long Strips of Plastic from a Barrel (MK-85 I believe?) He might even have pictures of it?

You are right. I bought the MK85 and it looked to be in very good shape. First thing I did was give it a good cleaning. I looked down the barrel and it looked like a street in Detroit. Full of potholes. I started thinking oh crap what is this. So I got out the JB bore paste. I never took pictures but I wish I ldid. I was getting plastic out of the barrel. After more JB and another couple hundred passes with the rod I was out of plastic but then I started to pull out lead. Thin strips real short.
I put a total of 700 strokes with JB through the barrel. I finally got it down to bare metal. Since then I named her the dirty girl and gave her to my son.
I shoot nothing but paper patched bullets in it with over powder wads that measure .620.
When I have seen guys have trouble with a fall off in accuracy or have bad luck with paper patched bullets. They have usually shot pure lead, not cleaned, then shot paper patched.

 

[Idaholewis]

Ron, It's pretty darn cool to look down a bore that has seen a Steady diet of Paper Patch, I always use the word Mirror, Very Slicked up “Shiny” :yeah: I have seen, and heard guy’s Speak of Barrels wearing out from them, I am not saying it’s impossible, but i would place a Bet that a guy won’t live long enough to find out My little .45 GM LRH has been shot a TON with PP, More with Paper Patch than Anything else, WAY more than the average guy would Ever shoot, i would go as far as to say more than a LOT of guy’s will shoot in their entire lifetime! This Barrel stil Holds the Same .449 Slip Fit PP bullet identical to what it did when i Started out with it Brand New from GM, I have ZERO worries of Paper Patch Hurting a barrel :yeah:

This Barrel leading is a VERY real thing, it has happened with me like Clockwork the few times i chose to NOT use an Over Powder Wad. I consider myself a fairly quick learner it didn’t take me long to Realize the importance of an Over Powder Wad. I made the Video to Prove to others that it Happens. But when you use an OP Wad it puts a Screeching Halt to it! At The Velocities we are getting with these Muzzleloaders, Leading is Not a Problem, But Light a Fire behind an unprotected Lead Bullet Base and you are making a problem, Wether you want to believe it or not

 

[idahoron]

I have been using oversized wads even with my paper patched bullets for over a dozen years. I feel that you can't protect the bullet too much.
A buddy if mine got a white mountain carbine from his uncle. It was a fast twist gun and his uncle used naked bullets. That thing was really leaded up. I have never seen that in my guns even the dirty girl mk85.
Barrel leading happens a lot in pistols too. I have seen that for a fact.
Good videos Lew!!