Muzzleloader brake

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How does the disk help block the sound off of the shooter?
In many ways sound waves and light waves react in a similar manner. Both can be absorbed, or reflected.
Imagine a brake with LEDs (Light Emitting Diodes) placed in the holes of the brake, near the outer surface of the brake.
Imagine that these LEDs emit light equally in all directions.
If you turned out the lights in a room and turned on the LEDs in the brake, someone holding the rifle in a normal shooting position would be illuminated by the light energy coming out of the brake. Why? Because there is nothing between the source of light energy and the shooter.
We cannot see the energy of sound waves. However, they travel in a similar manner from the holes in a brake.
Now we will do the same thought experiment with the brake containing the LEDs, but this time we will put the disk on the back of the brake.
We can cut out the lights in the room, and cut on the LEDs in the brake. Now most of the light coming from the brake does not hit a person in the shooters position, because they are in the shadow produced by the disk. Anyone standing to the side of the shooter would be illuminated.
This is the basic Physics behind the device.

If anyone here thinks the disk is ugly, that is OK with me.
I promise not to build one for your rifle.

I thought we might be through with the disk but its still going well.

ALL BRAKES.......... yours, mine and the next guy that posts ARE LOUD. Even the guy you had shooting your rifle was wearing good hearing protection. Get yourself an actual firearm sound meter and record the blast with ALL things being equal. Place the meter beside the rifle's recoil lug, that way it would be in the same location with and without the disk.
This model should work ........ LD_LxTQPR_Firearm_Test_lowres.pdf (larsondavis.com)

If a person holding their rifle in a normal bench shooting position was illuminated by LED lights in his/her brake, the brake is of PP design.
You can install the LED lights but its an assumption, not a validated test.

When you spend hours upon hours of design, engineering and testing, not with LED lights but with actual shooting and controlled photography of the brakes function, one does not need a disk, ring or other contraption for the brake to function perfectly.

I'm sorry, again, but the LED assumption doesn't even hold a candle to this actual photo. There's no disk or contraption on this brake and notice were the light (flame) directs to, along with the concussion.


Levi 450 brake at night.jpg

Again, I'm not saying your brake doesn't function, nor am I saying the contraption has zero value.
BUT............The best muzzleloader shooters, both SML and smokers are not using disks, rings, or contraptions with their brakes.
 
I thought we might be through with the disk but its still going well.

ALL BRAKES.......... yours, mine and the next guy that posts ARE LOUD. Even the guy you had shooting your rifle was wearing good hearing protection. Get yourself an actual firearm sound meter and record the blast with ALL things being equal. Place the meter beside the rifle's recoil lug, that way it would be in the same location with and without the disk.
This model should work ........ LD_LxTQPR_Firearm_Test_lowres.pdf (larsondavis.com)

If a person holding their rifle in a normal bench shooting position was illuminated by LED lights in his/her brake, the brake is of PP design.
You can install the LED lights but its an assumption, not a validated test.

When you spend hours upon hours of design, engineering and testing, not with LED lights but with actual shooting and controlled photography of the brakes function, one does not need a disk, ring or other contraption for the brake to function perfectly.

I'm sorry, again, but the LED assumption doesn't even hold a candle to this actual photo. There's no disk or contraption on this brake and notice were the light (flame) directs to, along with the concussion.


View attachment 15057

Again, I'm not saying your brake doesn't function, nor am I saying the contraption has zero value.
BUT............The best muzzleloader shooters, both SML and smokers are not using disks, rings, or contraptions with their brakes.

I already have a sound meter.

At one time a man came up with the idea of putting an electric starter motor on an automobile engine. Others said it was not needed because they had a hand crank on the front of their engine.

At one time Remington Arms said smokeless powder would not work in a muzzleloader. Savage Arms proved they were wrong.

At one time Remington Arms claimed to have developed the "Ultimate" muzzleloader. They were wrong, because it was invented by Jeff Hankins.

Some of the best muzzleloader shooters I know are now using a muzzle brake with a disk, which blocks much of the muzzle blast that reaches the shooter. It may be ugly, but it works. It is basic Physics 101.



(3) Reflection of Sound - Class 9 Tutorial - YouTube



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I already have a sound meter.

At one time a man came up with the idea of putting an electric starter motor on an automobile engine. Others said it was not needed because they had a hand crank on the front of their engine.

At one time Remington Arms said smokeless powder would not work in a muzzleloader. Savage Arms proved they were wrong.

At one time Remington Arms claimed to have developed the "Ultimate" muzzleloader. They were wrong, because it was invented by Jeff Hankins.

Some of the best muzzleloader shooters I know are now using a muzzle brake with a disk, which blocks much of the muzzle blast that reaches the shooter. It may be ugly, but it works. It is basic Physics 101.
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Jeff Hankins did not invent either the Ultimate Firearms muzzleloader or the Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader. Fact of the matter is, he didn't want a damn thing to do with either rifle. It wasn't until Arrowhead created an aftermarket ignition system that is successful and works 100%, that Jeff decided to try and make money by selling a copy of it with DI.

Remington didn't develop the Ultimate muzzleloader, they bought the rights to it from Ken Johnston of Ultimate Firearms Inc., the actual person that invented the "Ultimate" muzzleloader and its ignition. The Ultimate BP Xpress hit the market in 2001. There may be copyrighted and/or patents related to "Ultimate Muzzleloader".

I would suggest that you check outside your immediate group of "best muzzleloader shooters" and expand a little more. There isn't a single disk being shot at any of the major events, unless you attended. I've seen the rifles at Kentucky Challenges and they don't have a disk and the photographs are there to review by anyone. You'll see no disk on any rifle at the Midwest Classic shoots. The Hoosier Muzzleloader Classic is July 24th and I'll bet a 6pk of cola there won't be one there either. I can assure you, the boys at these events can shoot. They are not local hangouts at the local gun range.
I also don't see any disks on any smoker rifles used by champion shooters, many of them members right here on this site and likely reading this post.

Its easy to know who the top rifle builders are and also who the top shooters are. I've seen rifle after rifle built by many of these builders and not a single one had a disk behind the brake.

Reality 101.

I say it again, I'm not saying your brake doesn't function or that your disk doesn't do something. But the absolute proof, beyond a shadow of doubt is not LED lights in a brake, but an actual photo. Accept it for what it is. You can debate it until the cows come home but, the proof is in an actual photograph.
 
You can debate it until the cows come home but, the proof is in an actual photograph.

Proof?

Anyone can drill a 1-1/2 inch hole through a sheet of 4'x8' plywood, and then stick the barrel through it, and then fire the rifle.

If the muzzle blast is not reduced for the shooter, I will stand corrected.

Now keep reducing the size of the sheet of plywood down until only the shooter is protected.

Since you know a great deal more about designing and building muzzle brakes, and the basic laws of Physics, and all things dealing with modern muzzleloaders, I will let you have the last word on this matter.
(retired Human Factors Engineer (Ergonomist) :)

Thanks for the interesting conversation.
Yours is obviously much bigger than mine. (muzzle blast that is...)

Now I am starting to remember why I decided to retire from teaching...
 
I thought this was over once.

Interesting conversation? I'd rather say the conversation brought a little more reality forward.
I understand you not liking your baby called ugly, as you're convinced its the greatest thing since the invention of gun powder itself. As I've mentioned more than once, your brake may work to some extent and your disk might do something.

However, I've presented you with more than enough information, none of which you really wanted to respond to.
Just like your comment about the Remington Ultimate and Jeff Hankins inventing it, which didn't happen and ANY serious shooter already knew that. That comment was pure BS. However, I responded with facts and now you should know more about the Remington Ultimate and how it came about. You were right though that Remington didn't invent it, in fact it was Ken Johnston from Ultimate Firearms Inc., in Okemos, MI. Remington modified it.

You've went from LED lights and shooter illumination, electric starters on autos, 4x8 sheets of plywood and who knows where next. Yet the issue of all the great shooters you know and claim are using your disk, its clear that those shooters must be in your immediate circle of friends.

Anyone reading this can review all the events I mentioned earlier with all the photos of the events and not a single disk will be found on any of the top shooters or top rifle builders rifles, yet you continue your claims. I've not seen one on Hank's Message Board. I've not seen one on Doug's. I've not seen one on any of the smokeless FB sites, nor on any of the smoker sites. I will though stand corrected if you can show me photos of a disk in any of the major events I mentioned earlier.

The further the conversation goes, it becomes more clear that regardless of any information, or facts including photos that are presented, you'll still object to your baby being called ugly and reality doesn't matter. Its also clear that you're not reading everything that's posted. In short, there's absolutely no sense discussing this disk contraption and comparing it to ANY other brake. Your mind is so made up, absolutely nothing will change your mind. So its up to the other members or guests reading this post to make up their own individual minds about brakes. They can consider a brake designed, many hours of engineering and trial and produced on the finest machinery by TOP QUALITY and well known builders, or a disk made by a science teacher. Lets let them decide. Myself, I shoot way to much to accept or want a disk hanging off the end of my barrel when its not necessary, is no improvement over my current brake, or provide any improvements in accuracy.
Its clear we'll continue to disagree. Sorry but I'm not buying the disk contraption as the 8th wonder of the world.

I would suggest that you should have stayed in teaching, instead of wanting to be an engineer.
 
Remington didn't develop the Ultimate muzzleloader, they bought the rights to it from Ken Johnston of Ultimate Firearms Inc., the actual person that invented the "Ultimate" muzzleloader and its ignition. The Ultimate BP Xpress hit the market in 2001. There may be copyrighted and/or patents related to "Ultimate Muzzleloader".


What does Randy Wakeman say in the link below about the claims of the Johnstons?

The Michigan Not So Ultimate BP Xpress Rifle (randywakeman.com)


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What does Randy Wakeman say in the link below about the claims of the Johnstons?

The Michigan Not So Ultimate BP Xpress Rifle (randywakeman.com)

I have no horse in this, but I will say if you are using anything Randy Wakeman says or wrote as justification for anything in an argument you have officially lost.

Randy is a blowhard clown that thinks his bloviations make him seem like he has a clue. He has been banned from more outdoors forums than I can count for being an ass an not being able to admit any error.

He is better known for going after former employers than anything.
 
What does Randy Wakeman say in the link below about the claims of the Johnstons?

The Michigan Not So Ultimate BP Xpress Rifle (randywakeman.com)

Ok, more facts.......... Randy got all pissed off because Ken wouldn't GIVE him a rifle and Leupold VX scope. If Randy doesn't get what he wants, evidently he takes it out on others. Honestly, if you're reading and suggesting Randy knows it all, wait until others chime in. Woops........ southdakbearfan just did :) Good post Southdakbearfan.

How do I know this? Well, I'm personal friends with Ken Johnston. Ken and I had lunch quite often. I know the rifle inside and out. Randy doesn't have a clue, not a single clue. I've shot thousands, many thousands of rounds through an Ultimate muzzleloader. I've shot some dandy groups at distance with them.

Randy ran his mouth on his FB page and got his ass handed to him by a couple shooters. He couldn't have been more wrong. He got all pissed off and banned both from his web site, well until it was posted on every muzzleloader site and he allowed both again, but he stopped running his mouth about Ultimate muzzleloaders.

I have no horse in this, but I will say if you are using anything Randy Wakeman says or wrote as justification for anything in an argument you have officially lost.

Randy is a blowhard clown that thinks his bloviations make him seem like he has a clue. He has been banned from more outdoors forums than I can count for being an ass an not being able to admit any error.

He is better known for going after former employers than anything.

Read the above post again, slowly..........
 
I have no horse in this, but I will say if you are using anything Randy Wakeman says or wrote as justification for anything in an argument you have officially lost.

Randy is a blowhard clown that thinks his bloviations make him seem like he has a clue. He has been banned from more outdoors forums than I can count for being an ass an not being able to admit any error.

He is better known for going after former employers than anything.

I greatly appreciate the warning about Randy Wakeman.

Muzzleloader Primers - Overview of Primers for Johnston Muzzleloader - YouTube


I hope I am man enough to say it when I am wrong, and this case I was obviously wrong.

I will say it again. I was wrong.

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No info on muzzy brakes here. I shoot APAs only on my centerfires.
Regarding Ultimate Firearms, I had one of the original BP Express which I traded up for their 40X a few years later.
Both guns shot lights out with 210g Triple 7 and 250g saboted SSTs. With careful loading and no wind I get less than 1 moa all day, which for me is good.
Still have and use the 40X.
The only (I believe) inaccurate info I've seen posted by KJ and company was in the ballistics.
I know because I shot over a few Chronographs and readings across the machines were consistent. With the above load I got 2150-2200 FPS, not 2400+ like claimed.
Also, unless things have changed, don't shoot Blackhorn 209 in them as the plugs are susceptible to flame cutting.
Still, I've killed many deer at 250-300y with my Ultimates, and will happily pass the gun down when I'm gone. Many great memories with these rifles.
As part of the Remington agreement, I believe Ultimate Firearms still has rights to make/sell the original Ultimate MZ design using 45 Win Mag brass with LRM primers.
 
One other thing. Quid-pro-quo ... the above load that has worked for me in my muzzleloader all these years may or may not work in your gun.
Always start powder charges low and work up to what works for you. Do not exceed manufacturers recommended maximum charges.
 
One other thing. Quid-pro-quo ... the above load that has worked for me in my muzzleloader all these years may or may not work in your gun.
Always start powder charges low and work up to what works for you. Do not exceed manufacturers recommended maximum charges.
I have the bad habit of either loosing something, or deleting it. :rolleyes:

With 3 T7M pellets and a 300gr SST I was getting 2300fpsmv. That's the magnum pellets in the red box.

I'll look to see if I can find the ballistics screen shot, but at least I found one of my range cards.

Ultimate 300gr SST w 180grs pellets.JPG

The rifle would shoot and for what its actually made for, you can't get better. Out of the box using exactly the recommendations, zero the scope and go hunting.

IMG_0263a.JPG
 
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