My 50cal Full Bore Project

[reelamin]

Today was not bad all things considered. I sized some Hornady FTX300gr after I had knurled them with a file, and tried a couple different base wads. I fitted the first one and it was spot on, so I sized a total of nine I had knurled with a file. Loading at the range was way different with variable loading pressure. The groups were really good excluding one flier. With a fiber base wad 512x60 the group was 1.4" with two in one hole. With the plastic MMP base wad group was 1.6" with two .5" apart.

The variable in loading pressure was caused by the amount of location of the knurling, and there is just no way I can be perfectly consistent with the file. It works...but not precise and repeatable for what I am wanting/trying to do. With one flier out of three with similar groups and the shots felt good...no way possible to exclude the different loading pressure. The chronograph showed some really wide ES I never see with Sabot's or the properly sized Fury. Running right in the 1950fps range still with 120 of BH209...loosing some velocity compared to sabot's but not a huge amount. Yep, you guessed it...ordering a knurler tomorrow....WTH...it's only money right?

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

undersize krurl then size again . This will allow you to have a knurled bullet with the correct size that you can always get down the bore with the same loading pressure.

If you want a really slick Knurlung tool contact Jeff Fisk . (bestill) he sells a very nice knurling tool.

I shoot a lot of knurled bullets . I am sure i have shot well over a 1000. All done with 2 files . The trick is to size your bullets after knurling. Now i use a knurling tool mainly because its easier and faster. Using 2 files can and does work . Last summer i shot my .45 Knight 500 using Knurled 300 grain bullets all done with files at Friendship what we call the Creedmore . 15 shots in 45 minutes at a steel plate at 500 yards off of cross sticks in prone position . I had no trouble keeping all shots on the steel . My point is . Knurled bullets can be very consistent if being careful with files and sizing after knurling the bullets.

hope that makes sense

 

[reelamin]

undersize krurl then size again . This will allow you to have a knurled bullet with the correct size that you can always get down the bore with the same loading pressure.

If you want a really slick Knurlung tool contact Jeff Fisk . (bestill) he sells a very nice knurling tool.

I shoot a lot of knurled bullets . I am sure i have shot well over a 1000. All done with 2 files . The trick is to size your bullets after knurling. Now i use a knurling tool mainly because its easier and faster. Using 2 files can and does work . Last summer i shot my .45 Knight 500 using Knurled 300 grain bullets all done with files at Friendship what we call the Creedmore . 15 shots in 45 minutes at a steel plate at 500 yards off of cross sticks in prone position . I had no trouble keeping all shots on the steel . My point is . Knurled bullets can be very consistent if being careful with files and sizing after knurling the bullets.

hope that makes sense

Thanks for the information!!! What do you mean by "undersize, Knurl, then size again? Yes I'm sizing after knurling...were you sizing jacketed bullets? I tried to be the same, but they dont look like they have the same amount/location after sizing them. I have been talking with Kevin at Ultimate Cannelure Tool and thats the direction I am going. No question Jeff has great stuff, but I'm confident this tool will do exactly what I'm looking for.

 

[reelamin]

My new batch of Fury 320gr showed up. I noticed they had two different type/look to the knurling. I sized them, and it required two more marks tighter for a good fit in my fouled barrel. I separated them by knurling, and shot the diamond pattern first and I was super happy. All shots felt good, but it was still a .8 group. I loaded up the squared knurling and it required a little more pressure to seat it. The next target over was set the opposite
direction (home made targets) and it looked like a good shot. When I over layed the targets it almost matched the 3rd shot. So my POI was the same and the OA group size was no larger with the 4th shot.

Rifle is getting cleaned and knurler is on the way. Regardless I have a good full bore load with the 320 Fury. My velocity/energy is less than my goal for now but its super close. So, now the rest of the shooting is less stressful for me.

Anyone have any experience sizing the Fury? Is there a need to adjust slightly with each new batch? The last ones I sized ranged in diameter from .501-.503 as those were the "test fit" bullets I had ordered and were different diameter on purpose. Wonder if that had something to do with the die adjustment?

 

[ENCORE50A]

..............Anyone have any experience sizing the Fury? Is there a need to adjust slightly with each new batch? The last ones I sized ranged in diameter from .501-.503 as those were the "test fit" bullets I had ordered. Wonder if that had something to do with the die adjustment?

I had two different sets of 325's and they both sized at the same setting. All changed with the different weights (320/275's). Last I talked with Dennis, he was getting a new digital (?) knurling tool, which would make the bullets more consistent.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

im sorry been away for awhile . What i mean . I first undersize size my bullets smaller than my bore. They will fall right down the bore. Then i knurl the bullets back up. Then size to my bore. This allows me to always get always be able to get the bullets down the bore.

I normally do this with 2 different dies. I never have problems with stuck bullets with this process

 

[Browndogz]

reel where are you shooting? You are in Washington correct?

 

[reelamin]

Lol..the powers of deduction. My favorite is when a person posts a picture of an animal/fish they got and try to claim "got this over in xyz area...or even out of state ". Then any decent hunter/angler who has been out a little points out ...."Yeah, nice try that picture was taken on ABC ridge, looking towards buck canyon, and you set the camera on the forked burned tree for the pic. hahaha Yes, North Central.

I have not shot my muzzle loader this last week. My Cannelure/Knurling (Ultimate Cannelure Tool and it is hella well built) tool showed up Friday, and I broke my Plexi Chrono Screen by dropping it yesterday. Will get the knurler mounted, set up, and figure out how to use it today. Have a new pup to get out and get some bird time that is first priority every day. Make a new screen Monday and get back out shooting, as I have a new center fire project I need to shoot also.

 

[reelamin]

My Ulitmate Cannelure/Knurler showed up Friday and I got it mounted up and working today. What an incredible piece of equipment!!! I mean this thing is made to the detail and quality in the extreme!! This thing has every detail covered and even the rubber bands for shipping are high quality. I swapped in the knurling tool (photo of cannelure and knurler installed). Every moving part has a brass tipped set screw that holds perfectly just barely snugged with fingers. It allowed .001 adjustments easily. Also allows to leave the bullet base at .500 for easy starting. This is one tool that the price is well worth the quality and how well it worked. I only knurled two different types of bullets, as I will only work with one at a time here on out. Easy to use and does not require huge amount of pressure on the lever, the cam leverage is huge and easily knurls even the solid Barnes. Contact Kevin if you have any questions or want one. Kevin Knight <[email protected]>

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I have that same set up . Very nice

 

[ShawnT]

Wow that does a beautiful job. Just curious but what HP bullet is that and how much did you knurl them up?

 

[reelamin]

Well again another lesson learned. I knurled them too heavily and could not get them sized down enough to fit. That is a Barnes 54 cal that measures out at .500 and the other is a Hornady. I knurled lots of metal out to .503, but I should have barely got the tip out to .503. Still so much surface area after sizing I cant get them to slide...too much friction. Worst part was I sized all my fury bullets to fit, so when I adjusted my die I had them done. LOL....now I cant study the edges to see how thick they were. My bore is super tight.

So needless to say I have ruined lots of very good bullets learning this. So, I am currently knurling some Speer Deep Curl as they are cheaper to screw up. Once I get the amount figured out then hopefully I can transfer the knowledge to other bullets. The Barnes require much less knurling then a copper jacket, and even then the jacket thickness affects it. Basically, I hope others can learn from my mistakes and others can help me before I make them. It's all good and I'm having a blast in my crash course in modern full bore jacketed bullets.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I have that same set up . Very nice

Doug, you mentioned you size your bullets too small, then knurl them back to fit your bore? What's the reasoning behind that if you don't mind? Also, what force do you think you're using to load your knurled bullets in a clean, unfired barrel?

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

The reason i do that is so i can always load the gun . By undersizing the bullets first then knurling then sizing to my bore. What i am doing is basically just sizing my knurling . When i do this i use my files . Not that knurling tool shown in pictures .

By doing this . if my bullets spring back any at all . I am only pushing down the knurling on the bullet while trying to load. Not actually the solid portion on the copper jacket.

I have found that while shooting 84 grains of Blackhorn and wanting to shoot a bullet with .021 jacket thickness or more . I need a very snug fit and i need to weaken the jacket in order to get the bullet to obratrate into the bore . I only need to do this with light loads.

With your UF .size your bullets loose . They can be very loose. Im talking 2 finger push down loose . Then use a wad ,Veggie or Wool Wad with 95 grains Blackhorn 209 .( actually anywhere from 95 to 105)Thats plenty of powder to bump your bullets . Ill almost bet that load will shoot.

I read something a while back Busta wrote . Im pretty sure he was shooting SSTs. I think he was able to get them to shoot out of a .45 using 84 grains Blackhorn 209 but he was using a .50 wool wad in a .45 getting a better seal in the bore. That is something I want to try.

When shooting bullets smooth formed with the low pressure of Blackhorn. Guns can get finicky . Breech designs make a huge difference . The longer plugs such as the ASG or Knights. Wads are a MUST while shooting land riders. Oversized wool wads may be something to try ?Just my opionion and findings.

 

[GM54-120]

Undersized (about .001 or less) then knurled upto .001-.002 over land size always load for me with no fear of a hammer down. They are plenty snug too. I use .460x.060 veggie wads almost exclusively in 45s.

84grW of BH209 sounds like a centerfire going off. Not really a boom...very sharp "crack". You can almost tell by the sound if you got it right.

 

[ENCORE50A]

............By doing this . if my bullets spring back any at all . I am only pushing down the knurling on the bullet while trying to load. Not actually the solid portion on the copper jacket...………….
With your UF .size your bullets loose . They can be very loose. Im talking 2 finger push down loose . Then use a wad ,Veggie or Wool Wad with 95 grains Blackhorn 209 .( actually anywhere from 95 to 105)Thats plenty of powder to bump your bullets . Ill almost bet that load will shoot...…………..

Thanks, I understand now its the spring back that may happen and you're correcting for it.
I had the UF sizing down pretty good. Very accurate at 23# loading force.

 

[reelamin]

I finally had some time and the weather was cooperating as best as we have had. Sunny so the chrono would work but breezy. Worst case wind would account for .5-.8” max of movement. I headed to the range with some more test bullets and combinations. Some of those loads may cause issue with people. Please don’t go off topic and get into a debate on MAX LOADS. I’m a believer in we are all adults and can make our decisions and reap the rewards or suffer the consequences.


I have ruined many bullets with my file knurling then my knurling tool and trying to get them sized to fit. I found I did not have to put lots of pressure on the tool. Basically, I knurled them to .503”, but it was heavy and lots of metal moved out. That totally messed up my sizing as with more metal/contact/available resistance, the initial knurling/sizing matters. So, I had to get everything sized back to .500 or as close as it would go. I had or order a new sizing bushing for my NOE kit, and after it arrived I sized the FTX back to .500. With the spring back it was a good fit and loaded well.


The 300 FTX both with and without a base wad shot the same groups but different velocity. With a base wad actually show worse by a little and velocity was similar. On the Fury I am loosing noticeable amounts of FPS without the base wad. Again, the groups are listed as they were shot, but I will give them .5” of wiggle room due to the breeze. Even with the conditions the accuracy/velocity was not on par with the Fury. 300FTX has one more try and then it’s off the list for the Big Horn. I didn’t take pictures of every target, but I shot 21 rounds and it’s time to clean it.


I was going to shoot some with T73F and the first round loaded great. I then swabbed the barrel (don’t swab for 209) and promptly stuck the next bullet. All the bullets with BH209 and no swabbing loaded fine. So, T73F, or any similar requiring swabbing is out because I am not going to have different sized bullets for each powder. With no sabot’s my rifle seems to be liking the 1925-2000fps range.


300FTX: 120 BH209, W-W 209

Heavy .503 then sized to .500/NOE Die, .518x.60 base, 2004fps, 2.520”/2 – 1”

Heavy .503 then sized to .500/NOE Die, Bare, 2010fps, 2.060”/2-.250”


Fury 320 .503 sized to fit on adjustable die:

120 BH209, W-W 209, Bare, 1895fps, 1.441”

125 BH209, W-W 209, .521x.60 base, 2005fps, 1.910”, horizontal string.

130 BH209, W-W 209, Bare, 2010fps, 1.715”


When I have horizontal or vertical stringing it’s caused by two things. Equipment issue or environmental, with the breeze I’m leaning toward environment. I will shoot that one again for sure, and the FTX with no base wad. Also based on where the other bullets were landing I have to shoot the FTX one more time as a high flyer does not fit.

Also, took one day to hunt the cat after a snow but no tracks. Have to work the new pup for 4-5 birds a day too. Maybe I have too many hobbies? ha...negative ghost rider...that pattern is not full

 

[reelamin]

Update:
I hate to call it a setback, but I have spent a lot of time trying to fix my screwed up knurling. I just have too much centerfire and not "making a bullet" experience. I think everything is going to the same, but it never seems to work out that way. The variances in the file knurling I figured would not matter because when I re-sized them they would all fit. NEGATIVE!!! It all depends on how much, depth, jacket thickness, internal lead hardness, full copper, of surface area that is knurled. One little bit of difference completely changes the sizing needed so it can be loaded. Then add in I had file knurled a lot of bullets to try to get ahead and just size and load them. Again, NEGATIVE...all I did was create huge amounts of delays, stuck bullets, trips to and from the range, and frustration to the extreme many many days on end.

Then I got a nice precision knurling tool, and promptly did basically the same thing. I knurled several bullets and they looked amazing....then started sizing and trying to shoot them. Same frustration I was pulling way too much metal out and could not get them sized down to fit. I have several times considered saying screw this...shoot the Fury and move on to other projects. So, I have kept at it and figuring things out how to make it work. I was trying to save all the bullets I had by sizing them back down and re-doing them. There was a lot of coin being thrown away so I continued to try to save them. SCREW IT I THREW ALL OF THE REMAINING ONES INTO A BAG AND WILL GIVE THEM AWAY OR THROW THEM OUT!!!!

I started with fresh new bullets and set the knurler to raise .001 in diameter and .300 in knurling width. I sized one bullet at a time and it took a couple sizing die adjustments to find the proper fit. I then knurled and sized a second one at the last die setting and it fit the first time. I did it with a third and when it also fit I felt comfortable they will all fit now. I hope I have it figured out...well at least for two bullets I do. Every bullet is different just a little bit, and if it is in the wrong area I'm screwed and start again. Then work changed my schedule so I go go work in the dark and get off when it's dark. So I have to wait for days off to do any shooting. Oh well summer is getting here and soon enough I can shoot any day.

Here are all the .500 (file knurled and machine knurled) that I will send to anyone who wants them. Otherwise I am throwing them out. Figured maybe someone shooting a .54 can use them for practice or what ever.

 

[edward.penny]

I will take them. I've been wanting to try shooting knurled bullets.

 

[reelamin]

Done...check your PM's