My 50cal Full Bore Project

[reelamin]

Reelamin i have been following this thread . I admire you persistence. Have you already tried Thor bullets in your .50 ?.

Yes I have tried the Thor's and they were far less accurate than the sabot loads in my gun. The Thors are only sized at the skirt for a tiny bearing surface. I had a few left...ruined them with my file knurling screw up. Will order some more after I use up what I have. I like their design and they have decent BC (Same as Barnes)

It seems to me that 1.5" at 100 yards is good enough. At 300 it would still be 4.5". Not an issue on an elk. I sight my rifle in at 150 meters.

If 1.5" from a perfect solid bench rest is within your acceptable range is ok by me. Its not in the range I want or would want to shoot if the gun can do better. I am the farthest thing from a "Pie Plate" accuracy person as their is.

I don't understand the fouled barrel thing you are experiencing. With Blackhorn, you don't need to clean after shooting. So foul the barrel and then start shooting for groups. Size your bullets for the fouled barrel. I shoot 777, so I run a damp patch, then a clean patch between either shot. All of your shots should either be in a clean barrel or a dirty barrel.

All barrels regardless of what you shoot have a degree of fouling after every shot. The barrel just needs to be consistent (as you said) to get repeatable results. Some swab every shot and some don't depending on who, what, where they are shooting. I am trying different things. I'm finding I need to size my bullets differently if I swab between shots. This quickly eliminated T7 and similar black powder for this rifle. I have shot BH up to 50 shots without cleaning and my gun is still able to load within normal effort. I am back to shooting all shots on a fouled barrel and fully cleaning every 15-18 shots, and then starting again with a fouled barrel.

The problem I see, is terminal ballistics. My experience with bullets under 400 grains is that they don't penetrate. I shot a deer at 300 yds. once. No problem hitting it, but took 5 shots to kill it. I was shooting 340 gr. Precision Rifle Dead Centers. I shot a bull with a pure lead 400 gr. QT at 225 yards slightly angling away, and it only pentrated 1" into the heart, but expanded to over an inch. If I had missed the heart, I'd have lost the elk. Back then, I was shooting 150 grains of 777 powder. I've since dropped down to 115 gr. Buffalo hunters killed buffalo at 300 yards, so we should be able to kill an elk at that range. Frank Mayer, buffalo runner, used a .45-120 with English black powder and 550 gr. paper patched bullets at a bhn of around 11. I'm still looking for the perfect bullet, but I think that is probably the way to go.

The perfect bullet would be nice but everything is a compromise. I know for a fact a well constructed/designed bullet of mid to heavy weight for caliber at maximum velocity is more than adequate. I don't know your deer situation, but I have shot probably a few hundred deer with a 22WMR to a 338RUM and not one needed more than a couple shots. Something else must have been causing the bullets terminal problems. My experience is deer are easy to kill and elk are tough as hello!!! If I find a good elk load killing deer with it is a gimme. I have friends experience and the good old internet....pure lead is out for me (elk) unless I was shooting a very heavy bullet for caliber.

With a range finder and adjustable scope (legal in NM) or adjustable ladder sight, trajectory isn't that big an issue.

You are correct as sight picture/aiming is the same. No scopes allowed and I'm not interested in a 4" rear ladder sight ever on my hunting gun. If this does not work I'll just get another gun, but I'm committed and will see how it works out.

Thank you for your recommendation.
I will keep my eyes peeled for a usable option, until then sabots and a 45 XTP.

I have a full NOE kit with .500, 501, 502, 503 dies I will sell you. PM me if interested.

All, I really appreciate the input and to see the suggestions. I have already achieved my goal and have a 320 Fury shooting right at .75" and breaking 2000fps. I could quit tomorrow and be satisfied. But then I would loose all the knowledge and experience I'm gaining by bashing my head against the wall. There are many learning methods and I learn the best by actually doing things. Work schedule change, and its been so overcast my Chrono wont give a reading (can you say labradar) so no shooting. I have two centerfire in addition to this MZ to get load development done on. I always want all the data (not just accuracy) so I'll wait until the sun comes out.

I have been working on my archery set up on these hazy days. Running some tests with different fletching and arrow weights to see what works best. My end goal is to shoot a deer at 100yds or more with it. Just like the muzzy there is a balance of arrow weight/velocity and bow ability to shoot it that factors in. Heck a new bow (faster) may be in the works too. lol....told you I was a freak.

 

[reelamin]

The buffalo hunters were not trying to deprive the Indians. The railroad used hunters to feed the workers, initially. Later, once the trains started moving, they would be held up for up to 3 days, waiting on the buffalo herds to pass. The RR's answer was to employ the hunters to wipe out the buffalo herds, so as to not hold up the trains. The RR also had problems with the buffalo rubbing against the telegraph poles and pushing them over. True, the killing of the buffalo disrupted the lives of the Indians who depended on them, but that was not the reason for the killing. Each hunter had a number of skinners with him. A hunter might kill up to 50 buffalo a day, or, as many as his skinners could skin. The hides were piled on flat cars, and sent back to the city, to be tanned. Leather was a very important commodity of the day. Buffalo Robes were also stylish.

Thank you for the accurate statement....I like accuracy in everything I participate in.

 

[ourway77]

If you can slug your bore I think fury can size them to .503 he may even be able to size them under .500

 

[GM54-120]

It was exactly what Grant and General Sheridan did during the Indian wars. That included around 4 million bison killed on reservation land with the approval of Sheridan.

 

[Chick]

It was exactly what Grant and General Sheridan did during the Indian wars. That included around 4 million bison killed on reservation land with the approval of Sheridan.

That was a byproduct of the real reason for decimating the bison herds. It is always about money, and the trains getting held up, was affecting the flow of money, to the RR. But, there were a number of spin-off reasons, for the military and the economy. Here is an interesting read on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting

 

[45-70]

this will take any animal on north america. 115 grns , swiss 1 1/2 650 grain

 

[reelamin]

Just thought I would at least update where I am with this. LOL...no where any further towards a viable bullet except the Fury. I have tried and tried and the effort and problems are driving me out of my mind. I think I have it reduced down to the sizing die I have. It will size the fury down and they fit the day I size them and months later no problem. I size any of the other bullets and they fit fine in the shop, but go to the range and I can load one and then they start getting hard to load. I physically can not tighten down the die any more. A guy gave it to me and thats great and super appreciative. So for all of this, I just suck at it or I need a die I can size down more. The good thing is I was able to get the 320 Fury's to just under 2000fps and in the .8 for 3 shots.

I did not draw any of the bull tags, so only hunting deer with the muzzle loader this year. Plus my Wyoming Antelope hunt is right smack in the middle of muzzy deer at home, so I really only have about 5 days of hunting I can do. It's good enough for now....I have too many center fire rifles to finish up load development for. I am sending the Bighorn off tomorrow to Jeff at Bestill Creations tomorrow for his muzzle brake. Oh, yeah I bought a mountaineer from Jeff with his breach and muzzle brake on it. It shoots the Fury's extremely good in the .7 with a scope at 2000fps, and even better if I slow it to the mid 1800 range.

I wish I had the solution now but I think I'm still a ways out. Hope to work on it more at a later date. Yes, at this point I am pretty frustrated and need a break from it. next fall/winter I will probably buy a new die and start back at it. I just can not take another stuck bullet....about lost my mind a week ago....literally almost destroyed things I was so mad. When it gets that bad i just need to step away and take some time off.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I talked to Dennis yesterday . He has a new .50 bullet with a higher BC that he has been experimenting with. Dennis said he cloverleafed 3 shots at 100 yards with a 1-28 Encore. This bullet may help your quest ?

 

[45-70]

what is the weight

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Bob I am a idiot I did not ask . Dennis I think was hinting around asking me if I wanted to try some . I told Dennis I really do not shoot 50 s anymore . I gave Dennis Mark Millers phone number . I told Dennis Mark sell a bunch of 50s to Colorado Elk hunters . Mark currently sets guns up with Thor bullets (50s) I got the feeling the weight is close to the same . If I understood correctly he extended the bullet by making the hollow point longer increasing the BC .

On a side note Mark is coming to your shoot and bringing 2 other guys . They are staying with us . There are 3 of us coming and I also sent a text to Jason Neemer invited Jason to the shoot and a place to sleep . Hope we can have a good turn out for your shoot

 

[ENCORE50A]

The new Fury .50cal for the 1:28's are either 325gr or 285gr. Dennis doesn't have them up on the web site yet, but has bullet that can be ordered.

BC using a Labradar is .260 @1900fps

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

That looks very nice . I think he told me it has a BC around .240 . Does that sound correct ?

 

[ENCORE50A]

That looks very nice . I think he told me it has a BC around .240 . Does that sound correct ?

See the post above. I edited it. The BC is .260 @ 1900fps using the Labradar.

 

[GM54-120]

Pretty much any true BC over .230 for a 50cal is really something unless you want to shoot some monster slugs. The 300gr FTX for 50s is a claimed .200 or pretty close to that.

 

[Sideshow]

This is probably way late for you but Harrels precision makes a brake that works with a sabot as well as full.bore . Also useing a bore brush wrap the white ultra fine scotch brite around the brush following the brush spiral . Oil it with light oil and from breech to muzzle leting it rotate with rifleing twist pull it through till you no longer can feel any tooling marks or rough places in a barrel . Works best on a new barrel . Those rough spots are where your bore has been getting fouled at . Never seen this fail to tighten groups significantly and the barrel stays clean alot longer , in ANY type of gun . Velocity also will increase a little . Works Really Good !!! This comes from a friend who was a very successful sniper in Vietnam , #2 ranked actually . Love the bird hunting and dog !!! Good luck in all you do !!! Also check out hawk bullets . He isnt too famous but his stuff is pure copper jackets with a pure lead core . Different jacket thickness available to control toughness of bullet. Inexpensive and he'll work with you . Perfect !!! Get them long with a really deep hollow point (less than .180 dia so bc is good and to remove weight) and i think youll be pleased big time !!!

 

[GM54-120]

Hawks quality control was abysmal years ago. Many tried them and very few had good luck. I still got a couple boxes of Hawks 45cal spire points. The 40cal 225gr HPs i got were nicer but Fury's are $44/50 and bonded bullets.

 

[gemihur]

Season for the smokepole soon approaches and I'll leave you all to decide the best techniques to deliver the ultimate full-bore 50 cal. from a muzzleloader while I stray and experiment on my own with a .45 caliber proposition of the use of a 20" Gonic GA-90 barrel on a contender.
The whitetails here in the Blue Ridge average 125 # dressed and don't need a whole lot of lead to dispatch. I'll still go full bore utilizing a .457 350 gr. cast ahead of 80 gr. of 777 FFF.
It's a fast twist barrel (1:22") and sighted-in to reasonable accuracy for the first 100 yds. but weight/speed/trajectory limit my shots to inside 150 with suitable hold over.
Best of results with your Hawk bullets and I look forward to further conclusions being arrived at.

 

[Sideshow]

Hawks quality control was abysmal years ago. Many tried them and very few had good luck. I still got a couple boxes of Hawks 45cal spire points. The 40cal 225gr HPs i got were nicer but Fury's are $44/50 and bonded bullets.

Back then i was ordering custom bullets that no one offered nor thought of . I think he enjoyed our discussions and always did me a really nice job . Sorry to hear your experiances werent so hot .

 

[GM54-120]

Not just mine but several guys tried Hawks 45cal spitzers and the ogive quality was very poor. He also uses "tube" formed jackets like a Barnes Original. They are (or at least were) not jacket "cups".

Like i said you can buy a bonded Fury bullet for $44/50. In 40cal, 452 or 458. ASG has some in 10 packs you can try. He offers 40s upto 250gr that will work in many 45cals and some 50cal MLs. Its very hard to beat what Dino offers for the money and he is very helpful towards the ML community. He has gone above and beyond for us. He has made several custom runs with thinner/thicker jackets for guys.

 

[Sideshow]

Not just mine but several guys tried Hawks 45cal spitzers and the ogive quality was very poor. He also uses "tube" formed jackets like a Barnes Original. They are (or at least were) not jacket "cups".

Like i said you can buy a bonded Fury bullet for $44/50. In 40cal, 452 or 458. He offers 40s upto 250gr that will work in many 45cals and some 50cal MLs. Its very hard to beat what Dino offers for the money and he is very helpful towards the ML community. He has gone above and beyond for us. He has made several custom runs with thinner/thicker jackets for guys.

This is good to know . Back then bigger bore stuff was a passion trying to have a much improved bc with them so distance wasnt as big a factor . No one else would even try . I came to really appreciate working with him on those designs . I got older too soon so the recoil really became a factor . I did enjoy sucess but my shoulder and nose are much happier now !!! Lol !!! If one considers my open country cannon custom bk-92 , a 50 , that is really saying something !!! Lol !!!